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Tor exit node operator prosecuted in Austria

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Re: Tor exit node operator prosecuted in Austria

#71

Post by Spooky23 »

jdjb wrote: post #64
pbhjpbhj wrote: post #60

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Just running network equipment doesn't make you aware of it's use though. Tor users know through high-profile cases that Tor is being used for drugs deals and other criminal activities - but they run the exit nodes in the face of this. I'm not saying the law is correct (nor wrong) just that the application appears to be valid. Yes, there are high-moral reasons to run an exit node too.

ISPs know that the internet is used for drug deals and criminal activities. Should we prosecute them too? Gun dealers also know their guns can be used to shoot people. Are they culpable in every murder?

The difference is that ISPs are regulated, and part of that regulation is that they must intercept traffic.

Re: Tor exit node operator prosecuted in Austria

#72

Post by esbranson »

the_mitsuhiko wrote: post #55
esbranson wrote: post #44

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Lets put it this way: If you took American judges and American lawyers and American laws and used Austria's jurisprudence, would the legal system be better or worse than America's? Without juries and without doctrine like stare decisis , IMO, way worse . Its just so sad to see what has happened to Austria's legal system. Austrians lost their right to a jury trial, which AFAIK happened circa 1933-1934 (this should giv…

> Austrians have absolutely no clue they even had it Citation needed. From personal experience Austrians are very much in support of not having American style juries which are seen in a very bad light over here. > Lets put it this way: If you took American judges and American lawyers and American laws and used Austria's jurisprudence, would the legal system be better or worse than America's? Why would you mix things…

> Citation needed.

It is hard to prove a negative or prove something has not happened. I'll leave that as an exercise to the reader.

> American style juries which are seen in a very bad light over here

That neither supports nor refutes my argument that Austrians have no clue about Austrian style juries.

> Personally I would much rather have to deal with an Austrian court than an American one.

I would much rather deal with an American court with Austrian judges.

> Why would you mix things together that do not go together?

Because I possess free will. And I am capable of performing thought experiments.

Re: Tor exit node operator prosecuted in Austria

#73

Post by rainforest »

VMG wrote: post #21
fredsted wrote: post #10

Is this is the "big brother" plan to eradicate anonymity services? Just argue "child porn!" and arrest everyone? The law quoted was: >Not only the immediate perpetator commits a criminal action, but also anyone who appoints someone to carry it out, or anyone who otherwise contributes to the completion of said criminal action. Anyone who contributes? Wouldn't this include ISPs or perhaps even the application server te…

Assuming Darknet technology is improved to the point that "exit nodes" become unnecessary (something like BitMessage), the next target would be developers of such software and developers of cryptography software in general.

Exit nodes are already unnecessary; TOR allows you to operate services on the network itself ("hidden services").

However, it seems not everything is kept on the TOR network. I would've assumed that if someone were using TOR for criminal purposes, they wouldn't expose themselves to monitoring by accessing resources off TOR, but that doesn't seem to be the case.

Re: Tor exit node operator prosecuted in Austria

#74

Post by teamhappy »

teamhappy wrote: post #20
lawl wrote: post #11

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Came here and to post this too. It's really a shame how the current system of law enforcement is designed to destroy completely destroy people. I'm idling in some of the same public IRC channels as will (since way before he was raided for running a TOR node) it was/is painful to watch how this completely destroyed him. It has really put me off, and probably many others, from ever hosting a TOR node, which might what…

Unfortunately this hasn't been the first case like that and it probably won't be the last one either. Saying they destroy peoples lives on purpose isn't fair though. Everybody setting up an exit node knows there's some chance the police will knock on your door one day or at the very least you'll end up getting a lot of letters. Projects like https://www.torservers.net exist for that very reason. I understand donating…

@sp332:

>> I don't get how the rest of your comment supports this statement.

It doesn't. I didn't make that statement - you did.

I said they don't destroy lives _on purpose_. Neither are they trying to stop people from running exit nodes. They don't know what an exit node is. Somebody is doing nasty things using Tor. They look at the Whois record. Your name pops up. They knock on your door. End of story (I don't like the story either).

@cookiecaper:

The last paragraph of your comment isn't true. The Tor Project itself trusts and supports these organizations (like torservers.net - I'm sure there are many others like it). All nodes under control of one organization are marked as such inside the network so Tor clients can avoid using more than one of them at a time.

This talk might help: Defcon 21 - Safety of Tor Network Look at Network Diversity, Relay Operators & Malicious Relays (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=864FxA3jmHk)

---

By the way. What's with all the downvotes? You do realise that I'm not responsible for anybody's house getting raided by the police, yes? I'm tired of blaming the police while nobody is willing to sit down with them and explain to them how Tor works. It's just not helpful.

Re: Tor exit node operator prosecuted in Austria

#75

Post by maxlybbert »

downandout wrote: post #52
fredsted wrote: post #10

Is this is the "big brother" plan to eradicate anonymity services? Just argue "child porn!" and arrest everyone? The law quoted was: >Not only the immediate perpetator commits a criminal action, but also anyone who appoints someone to carry it out, or anyone who otherwise contributes to the completion of said criminal action. Anyone who contributes? Wouldn't this include ISPs or perhaps even the application server te…

While I disagree with them, there are a multitude of laws in most countries that make operating a TOR exit node a very bad idea. The concept of criminal responsibility for enabling the illegal acts of others, even when you don't know specifically what others are going to do with the tools you provide, is well established in the US and other countries. Perfect example: Ryan Holle of Florida is serving life without par…

This is the basic weakness of Tor: while nobody can listen in on your communications, they can determine you're using Tor and communicating covertly. In some jurisdictions that's enough to put you in jail or to question you with the help of very nasty tools.

Re: Tor exit node operator prosecuted in Austria

#76

Post by maxlybbert »

malka wrote: post #23
fredsted wrote: post #10

Is this is the "big brother" plan to eradicate anonymity services? Just argue "child porn!" and arrest everyone? The law quoted was: >Not only the immediate perpetator commits a criminal action, but also anyone who appoints someone to carry it out, or anyone who otherwise contributes to the completion of said criminal action. Anyone who contributes? Wouldn't this include ISPs or perhaps even the application server te…

When someone is condamned for something online-related (piracy, CP, etc.), we should obviously arrest all the owners of routers between the source and the target. They are accomplice because they helped the data to transit. That's only commom sense ! /s

There are several countries that would do exactly as you say, or would threaten to do it in order to get a few bribes to the right people.

Re: Tor exit node operator prosecuted in Austria

#77

Post by downandout »

danielweber wrote: post #65
downandout wrote: post #61

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Whether he knew or not (he says he didn't believe that they were going to do it), the comparison to TOR-related cases is still appropriate. If one of these cases went to trial in the US, you would hear the prosecutor telling the jury about TOR's seedy reputation, and that because of that reputation, any reasonable person would have known that illegal activity was likely to occur. Under federal and most state laws, th…

Legally, "you should have known something fishy was going to occur" is a very different beast from "you knowingly participated in a felony conspiracy, and a co-conspirator committed murder that depended on your material aid." Home invasions have a tendency to end up with someone dead. Don't help your friends commit them by giving them guns or the vehicles to get there. (Also, don't be the getaway driver for a bank ro…

Home invasions have a tendency to end up with someone dead. Don't help your friends commit them by giving them guns or the vehicles to get there. (Also, don't be the getaway driver for a bank robbery.)

And, I suspect a jury would add to that...Don't offer up your internet connection with the specific intent to aid in shielding the identities of child pornographers, spammers, and all manner of thieves.

Re: Tor exit node operator prosecuted in Austria

#78

Post by gioele »

If the convicted will appeal, and if the appeal will arrive up to the EU Court of justice, this would be the first care in which it is debated whether TOR operators are protected by the "mere conduit" doctrine that is base on which ISPs are not held responsible. [1]

Too bad that it may take up to 10 years for this case to be appealed up to EU court of justice.

[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Electronic_Commerce_Directive_...

Re: Tor exit node operator prosecuted in Austria

#79

Post by higherpurpose »

kriro wrote: post #19
EthanV2 wrote: post #3

Does this mean that Austrian ISPs can be prosecuted if their customers use their connections to transmit "content of an illegal nature"? Surely the ISP knows that some of their customers could use their services for illicit purposes, meaning they're "guilty of complicity" themselves.

AFAIK, in Germany (I know the article is about Austria but I'd guess their laws are similar) you can be held responsible if something illegal is conducted through your network (usually open WLANs). It's called "Störerhaftung" and is pretty crazy because it essentially means every grandmother has to become a sysadmin of sorts. This is used a lot in film download trials etc. ISPs are explicitly excluded from this and n…

There was a story about a Retroshare guy from Germany being prosecuted in a similar case, but the Court cleared him.

Re: Tor exit node operator prosecuted in Austria

#80

Post by danielweber »

downandout wrote: post #77
danielweber wrote: post #65

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Legally, "you should have known something fishy was going to occur" is a very different beast from "you knowingly participated in a felony conspiracy, and a co-conspirator committed murder that depended on your material aid." Home invasions have a tendency to end up with someone dead. Don't help your friends commit them by giving them guns or the vehicles to get there. (Also, don't be the getaway driver for a bank ro…

Home invasions have a tendency to end up with someone dead. Don't help your friends commit them by giving them guns or the vehicles to get there. (Also, don't be the getaway driver for a bank robbery.) And, I suspect a jury would add to that...Don't offer up your internet connection with the specific intent to aid in shielding the identities of child pornographers, spammers, and all manner of thieves.

The jury doesn't get to make up laws or charges.

Halle was convicted specifically under Florida's felony murder law, which lists a number of felonies (including arson, escape, home invasion, and carjacking) that, if you participate in them, you are liable for any murders that occur during them.

We might someday find that everyone is responsible for their Internet connection. But it won't be because of felony murder laws.

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