Tor exit node operator prosecuted in Austria • Hacker News Board

Re: Tor exit node operator prosecuted in Austria

#51

Post by spyder » Wed, Jul 02, 2014, 2:23 PM UTC

giancarlostoro wrote: post #22

fredsted wrote: post #10

Is this is the "big brother" plan to eradicate anonymity services? Just argue "child porn!" and arrest everyone? The law quoted was: >Not only the immediate perpetator commits a criminal action, but also anyone who appoints someone to carry it out, or anyone who otherwise contributes to the completion of said criminal action. Anyone who contributes? Wouldn't this include ISPs or perhaps even the application server te…

Lawmakers aren't as intelligent as programmers. What's worse is, instead of just telling him to turn off the exit node now he's seen as a criminal by the system for doing absolutely nothing. Imagine applying for a job and trying to explain to them why you were arrested, especially if the interviewer is not tech savvy it might not look so good.

From his blog: "It’s now finally over and besides the cost i CAN live with this sentence, it does not show up in police registers and won’t be an issue for work and alike in the future."

Re: Tor exit node operator prosecuted in Austria

#52

Post by downandout » Wed, Jul 02, 2014, 2:25 PM UTC

fredsted wrote: post #10

Is this is the "big brother" plan to eradicate anonymity services? Just argue "child porn!" and arrest everyone? The law quoted was: >Not only the immediate perpetator commits a criminal action, but also anyone who appoints someone to carry it out, or anyone who otherwise contributes to the completion of said criminal action. Anyone who contributes? Wouldn't this include ISPs or perhaps even the application server te…

While I disagree with them, there are a multitude of laws in most countries that make operating a TOR exit node a very bad idea. The concept of criminal responsibility for enabling the illegal acts of others, even when you don't know specifically what others are going to do with the tools you provide, is well established in the US and other countries.

Perfect example: Ryan Holle of Florida is serving life without parole for allowing his friends to borrow his car at a party when he was 18 years old. He went to sleep; his friends took the car and committed a robbery during which someone was killed. The prosecutor's argument to the jury during the 1 day trial? "No car, no murder".

Re: Tor exit node operator prosecuted in Austria

#53

Post by ominous » Wed, Jul 02, 2014, 2:32 PM UTC

fredsted wrote: post #10

Is this is the "big brother" plan to eradicate anonymity services? Just argue "child porn!" and arrest everyone? The law quoted was: >Not only the immediate perpetator commits a criminal action, but also anyone who appoints someone to carry it out, or anyone who otherwise contributes to the completion of said criminal action. Anyone who contributes? Wouldn't this include ISPs or perhaps even the application server te…

"In the end, what got us was not AIDS, social injustice or a stealthy black hole. The second the first artificial intelligence awakened, charged with keeping peace in a college campus, it managed to exploit its way around the globe and waged war on all systems with laws, protocols and contracts. Creating rules allowed for them to be broken. By breaking rules, criminals were created. Rules prescribe punishment. At the same time the intelligence discovered wit, schadenfreude and the concept of "kafkian hell". Everything was enforced at once."

Re: Tor exit node operator prosecuted in Austria

#54

Post by imdsm » Wed, Jul 02, 2014, 2:33 PM UTC

So, am I right in assuming that if I transfer illegal content from my laptop to my friends laptop via a cafe wireless network, they are complicit in my crimes and will also be at fault?

Re: Tor exit node operator prosecuted in Austria

#55

Post by the_mitsuhiko » Wed, Jul 02, 2014, 2:34 PM UTC

esbranson wrote: post #44

the_mitsuhiko wrote: post #39

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Austria's women and landscapes are beautiful. Austria's legal system, not so much. I think our legal system is pretty good to be honest. (Then again, I also pretty much agree with the fact that TOR exit nodes are not compatible with Austrian law.)

Lets put it this way: If you took American judges and American lawyers and American laws and used Austria's jurisprudence, would the legal system be better or worse than America's? Without juries and without doctrine like stare decisis , IMO, way worse . Its just so sad to see what has happened to Austria's legal system. Austrians lost their right to a jury trial, which AFAIK happened circa 1933-1934 (this should giv…

> Austrians have absolutely no clue they even had it

Citation needed. From personal experience Austrians are very much in support of not having American style juries which are seen in a very bad light over here.

> Lets put it this way: If you took American judges and American lawyers and American laws and used Austria's jurisprudence, would the legal system be better or worse than America's?

Why would you mix things together that do not go together? Personally I would much rather have to deal with an Austrian court than an American one.

Re: Tor exit node operator prosecuted in Austria

#56

Post by cookiecaper » Wed, Jul 02, 2014, 2:36 PM UTC

downandout wrote: post #52

fredsted wrote: post #10

Is this is the "big brother" plan to eradicate anonymity services? Just argue "child porn!" and arrest everyone? The law quoted was: >Not only the immediate perpetator commits a criminal action, but also anyone who appoints someone to carry it out, or anyone who otherwise contributes to the completion of said criminal action. Anyone who contributes? Wouldn't this include ISPs or perhaps even the application server te…

While I disagree with them, there are a multitude of laws in most countries that make operating a TOR exit node a very bad idea. The concept of criminal responsibility for enabling the illegal acts of others, even when you don't know specifically what others are going to do with the tools you provide, is well established in the US and other countries. Perfect example: Ryan Holle of Florida is serving life without par…

This is why the concept of jury nullification is important. Yes, it's good to have laws that punish accessories, but that kind of thing is obviously not the intended case. No rational person would accept that outcome under normal circumstances, but jurors are essentially bullied by the legal establishment, which holds them in fairly clear disdain, and told they must deliver a ruling based on certain rules without consideration to the larger import of the situation or face contempt of court. I suppose the abuse is even worse in jurisdictions and/or cases where jurors do not have a say in sentencing.

Re: Tor exit node operator prosecuted in Austria

#57

Post by danielweber » Wed, Jul 02, 2014, 2:41 PM UTC

downandout wrote: post #52

fredsted wrote: post #10

Is this is the "big brother" plan to eradicate anonymity services? Just argue "child porn!" and arrest everyone? The law quoted was: >Not only the immediate perpetator commits a criminal action, but also anyone who appoints someone to carry it out, or anyone who otherwise contributes to the completion of said criminal action. Anyone who contributes? Wouldn't this include ISPs or perhaps even the application server te…

While I disagree with them, there are a multitude of laws in most countries that make operating a TOR exit node a very bad idea. The concept of criminal responsibility for enabling the illegal acts of others, even when you don't know specifically what others are going to do with the tools you provide, is well established in the US and other countries. Perfect example: Ryan Holle of Florida is serving life without par…

There is something big missing from that summary of Holle: he knew his friends were going to commit a burglary.[1] Without that connection that puts him on the hook for a felony, he wouldn't be facing life for felony murder.[2]

[1] He disputes his point, which is fair enough, but the court has found otherwise.

[2] Someone could point out the three-felonies-a-day thing here.

EDIT for footnote 2 Flordia's felony murder law[3] spells out the very specific felonies in which you face felony murder charges. These aren't in the same category as accidentally picking up a lobster trap.

[3] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Felony_murder_rule_(Florida)

Re: Tor exit node operator prosecuted in Austria

#58

Post by pbhjpbhj » Wed, Jul 02, 2014, 2:44 PM UTC

esbranson wrote: post #17

EthanV2 wrote: post #3

Does this mean that Austrian ISPs can be prosecuted if their customers use their connections to transmit "content of an illegal nature"? Surely the ISP knows that some of their customers could use their services for illicit purposes, meaning they're "guilty of complicity" themselves.

It means absolutely nothing. Austria does not follow the common law doctrine of stare decisis , where each case is bound to follow whatever reasoning is used by a superior court. (Note that "constant jurisprudence" is completely different and is not really binding, since higher court chambers do not have stable composition and as such their reasoning may not be consistent.) A different court is allowed to use complet…

That's interesting about Austria not using stare decisis. How does that mesh with them being part of Europe. European laws which have been ratified would surely require them to rely on other European decisions? (Art. 177 EEC I think?)

Art.6 ECHR - right to fair trial - appears to contradict the idea of allowing contrary reasoning to be used arbitrarily. Political appointees coming to a different decision would seem to require partiality too.

Interesting.

Re: Tor exit node operator prosecuted in Austria

#59

Post by anaphor » Wed, Jul 02, 2014, 2:46 PM UTC

mahouse wrote: post #37

4ad wrote: post #32

I live in Austria, used to ran a TOR relay and this worries me deeply. I am unsure what to do.

But this is a problem only if it's an exit node, right?

It's still a legal problem as much as running an exit node is, they just can't easily figure out that you did anything because of how Tor works. You couldn't even confess to anything either if you wanted to.

Re: Tor exit node operator prosecuted in Austria

#60

Post by pbhjpbhj » Wed, Jul 02, 2014, 2:52 PM UTC

malka wrote: post #23

fredsted wrote: post #10

Is this is the "big brother" plan to eradicate anonymity services? Just argue "child porn!" and arrest everyone? The law quoted was: >Not only the immediate perpetator commits a criminal action, but also anyone who appoints someone to carry it out, or anyone who otherwise contributes to the completion of said criminal action. Anyone who contributes? Wouldn't this include ISPs or perhaps even the application server te…

When someone is condamned for something online-related (piracy, CP, etc.), we should obviously arrest all the owners of routers between the source and the target. They are accomplice because they helped the data to transit. That's only commom sense ! /s

Just running network equipment doesn't make you aware of it's use though. Tor users know through high-profile cases that Tor is being used for drugs deals and other criminal activities - but they run the exit nodes in the face of this. I'm not saying the law is correct (nor wrong) just that the application appears to be valid.

Yes, there are high-moral reasons to run an exit node too.