Tor exit node operator prosecuted in Austria • Hacker News Board

Re: Tor exit node operator prosecuted in Austria

#81

Post by peterjancelis » Wed, Jul 02, 2014, 3:27 PM UTC

pritambaral wrote: post #70

peterjancelis wrote: post #63

It's too easy to scare people from hosting tor exit nodes right now. I think the way forward is to incorporate some use based digital currency payments to compensate exit node operators for their risk. Make it a business and let the market decide the insurance premium needed.

Who do you think can pay more? Dissident journalists or internet drug dealers?

Companies don't just serve those who can pay the most. They serve, absent transaction costs, all customers who can pay more than the marginal cost.

Re: Tor exit node operator prosecuted in Austria

#82

Post by the_mitsuhiko » Wed, Jul 02, 2014, 3:27 PM UTC

esbranson wrote: post #72

the_mitsuhiko wrote: post #55

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Austrians have absolutely no clue they even had it Citation needed. From personal experience Austrians are very much in support of not having American style juries which are seen in a very bad light over here. > Lets put it this way: If you took American judges and American lawyers and American laws and used Austria's jurisprudence, would the legal system be better or worse than America's? Why would you mix things…

> Citation needed. It is hard to prove a negative or prove something has not happened. I'll leave that as an exercise to the reader. > American style juries which are seen in a very bad light over here That neither supports nor refutes my argument that Austrians have no clue about Austrian style juries. > Personally I would much rather have to deal with an Austrian court than an American one. I would much rather deal…

> That neither supports nor refutes my argument that Austrian's have no clue about Austrian style juries.

It's very hard to refute that claim because you did not provide any sources for yours either. I would not know how to judge how Austrians see courts besides my limited exposure to the few law related classes I took and observing one of our most popular judges for a day and that obviously is personal bias.

> I would much rather deal with an American court with Austrian judges.

I can only assume Austrian courts did you something wrong or a person you know. Austrian courts see so little public exposure that you literally have to pick individual cases together by force to get a (skewed) view of the world. For the most part court cases in Austria are ridiculously boring.

Re: Tor exit node operator prosecuted in Austria

#83

Post by xienze » Wed, Jul 02, 2014, 3:30 PM UTC

lawl wrote: post #11

dewey wrote: post #2

Official statement from the guy who got sentenced: https://rdns.im/court-official-statement-part-1

Came here and to post this too. It's really a shame how the current system of law enforcement is designed to destroy completely destroy people. I'm idling in some of the same public IRC channels as will (since way before he was raided for running a TOR node) it was/is painful to watch how this completely destroyed him. It has really put me off, and probably many others, from ever hosting a TOR node, which might what…

> If you want to help people in heavily censored (or monitored, but what would be every single one of them, as of now) countries you get punished and your life gets completely ruined.

I know that's the dream of everyone running a Tor node but let's face it, you're mostly helping drug dealers and child pornographers operate. Not saying that's your intention, but that's what's happening. That's why it's absolutely crazy to operate a node. Find some other way to help if you value your freedom.

Re: Tor exit node operator prosecuted in Austria

#84

Post by the_mitsuhiko » Wed, Jul 02, 2014, 3:32 PM UTC

pbhjpbhj wrote: post #58

esbranson wrote: post #17

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It means absolutely nothing. Austria does not follow the common law doctrine of stare decisis , where each case is bound to follow whatever reasoning is used by a superior court. (Note that "constant jurisprudence" is completely different and is not really binding, since higher court chambers do not have stable composition and as such their reasoning may not be consistent.) A different court is allowed to use complet…

That's interesting about Austria not using stare decisis . How does that mesh with them being part of Europe. European laws which have been ratified would surely require them to rely on other European decisions? (Art. 177 EEC I think?) Art.6 ECHR - right to fair trial - appears to contradict the idea of allowing contrary reasoning to be used arbitrarily. Political appointees coming to a different decision would seem…

Common law is only being used in the United Kingdom: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Common_law#mediaviewer/File:Leg...

Re: Tor exit node operator prosecuted in Austria

#85

Post by belorn » Wed, Jul 02, 2014, 3:34 PM UTC

pbhjpbhj wrote: post #60

malka wrote: post #23

Earlier quoted context omitted.

When someone is condamned for something online-related (piracy, CP, etc.), we should obviously arrest all the owners of routers between the source and the target. They are accomplice because they helped the data to transit. That's only commom sense ! /s

Just running network equipment doesn't make you aware of it's use though. Tor users know through high-profile cases that Tor is being used for drugs deals and other criminal activities - but they run the exit nodes in the face of this. I'm not saying the law is correct (nor wrong) just that the application appears to be valid. Yes, there are high-moral reasons to run an exit node too.

The requirement for knowing about criminal activities is intentional very high. If it wasn't, almost every internet based service would be deemed illegal. ISP and online market places like Amazon can not claim they aren't aware of fraudsters, but they still a necessary tool in the crime.

During the Pirate Bay trial, the requirement was set to "primary usage". They took a screenshot of the top 100, and sad "obviously, the site founders know that the primary usage was illegal" which the court then accepted. Arguing that same for tor is sketchy at best, and there is government organizations, researchers and developers who would argue that the primary usage for tor is as a privacy tool for non-criminal activities. I also suspect that they would have plenty of evidence to back it up.

Re: Tor exit node operator prosecuted in Austria

#86

Post by jseliger » Wed, Jul 02, 2014, 3:34 PM UTC

lawl wrote: post #11

dewey wrote: post #2

Official statement from the guy who got sentenced: https://rdns.im/court-official-statement-part-1

Came here and to post this too. It's really a shame how the current system of law enforcement is designed to destroy completely destroy people. I'm idling in some of the same public IRC channels as will (since way before he was raided for running a TOR node) it was/is painful to watch how this completely destroyed him. It has really put me off, and probably many others, from ever hosting a TOR node, which might what…

It's really a shame how the current system of law enforcement is designed to destroy completely destroy people.

No one is innocent: http://marginalrevolution.com/marginalrevolution/2013/06/no-... .

Re: Tor exit node operator prosecuted in Austria

#87

Post by clavalle » Wed, Jul 02, 2014, 3:36 PM UTC

downandout wrote: post #61

danielweber wrote: post #57

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There is something big missing from that summary of Holle: he knew his friends were going to commit a burglary.[1] Without that connection that puts him on the hook for a felony, he wouldn't be facing life for felony murder.[2] [1] He disputes his point, which is fair enough, but the court has found otherwise. [2] Someone could point out the three-felonies-a-day thing here. EDIT for footnote 2 Flordia's felony murder…

Whether he knew or not (he says he didn't believe that they were going to do it), the comparison to TOR-related cases is still appropriate. If one of these cases went to trial in the US, you would hear the prosecutor telling the jury about TOR's seedy reputation, and that because of that reputation, any reasonable person would have known that illegal activity was likely to occur. Under federal and most state laws, th…

A better analogy is that a rental-car company owner being prosecuted because someone rented a car and committed a bank robbery.

Re: Tor exit node operator prosecuted in Austria

#88

Post by hga » Wed, Jul 02, 2014, 3:40 PM UTC

cookiecaper wrote: post #56

downandout wrote: post #52

Earlier quoted context omitted.

While I disagree with them, there are a multitude of laws in most countries that make operating a TOR exit node a very bad idea. The concept of criminal responsibility for enabling the illegal acts of others, even when you don't know specifically what others are going to do with the tools you provide, is well established in the US and other countries. Perfect example: Ryan Holle of Florida is serving life without par…

This is why the concept of jury nullification is important. Yes, it's good to have laws that punish accessories, but that kind of thing is obviously not the intended case. No rational person would accept that outcome under normal circumstances, but jurors are essentially bullied by the legal establishment, which holds them in fairly clear disdain, and told they must deliver a ruling based on certain rules without con…

After some checking with Google I don't get the impression this case was "serious" enough to have a jury involved. E.g. from the statement of the convicted it's implied the maximum jail term would have been 3 months.

Those of us in common law based legal regimes count ourselves lucky to have that check in all but the most trifling of cases.

Re: Tor exit node operator prosecuted in Austria

#89

Post by phn » Wed, Jul 02, 2014, 3:41 PM UTC

I know what I am suggesting is wrong on some levels, and creates a myriad of other problems, but bear with me.

If I run a Tor exit node, can I block outgoing packets to known illegal servers/addresses?

Would some kind of update mechanism of this list (of course, the question is controlled by whom?) warrant that known illegal servers are not available, and thus show/prove my intent that no ill use was endorsed by me?

Re: Tor exit node operator prosecuted in Austria

#90

Post by downandout » Wed, Jul 02, 2014, 3:49 PM UTC

danielweber wrote: post #80

downandout wrote: post #77

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Home invasions have a tendency to end up with someone dead. Don't help your friends commit them by giving them guns or the vehicles to get there. (Also, don't be the getaway driver for a bank robbery.) And, I suspect a jury would add to that...Don't offer up your internet connection with the specific intent to aid in shielding the identities of child pornographers, spammers, and all manner of thieves.

The jury doesn't get to make up laws or charges. Halle was convicted specifically under Florida's felony murder law, which lists a number of felonies (including arson, escape, home invasion, and carjacking) that, if you participate in them, you are liable for any murders that occur during them. We might someday find that everyone is responsible for their Internet connection. But it won't be because of felony murder l…

You're being pedantic. The point is that there are similar laws regarding conspiracy that are even more broad, that could easily put an exit node operator in prison.