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An open letter on feminism in tech

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Re: An open letter on feminism in tech

#311

Post by swombat »

steveklabnik wrote: post #67
ronaldx wrote: post #31

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I feel uncomfortable that you have implicitly associated the parent article and its goals with extremism and hatred, which I don't observe.

Swombat and the founder of MVC have sparred over twitter numerous times, and he had to unfollow me because I retweet her often. Sometimes, people just don't like each other. (I have no beef with Swombat.)

For the record (Twitter was a poor medium for explaining this) I also have no beef with you - I just unfollowed because practically, seeing Shanley's tweets in my feed just makes my life less good by rubbing in my face that such people exist and have influence in the world. I can't do anything about the fact that people choose to follow anger, hatred and fear - but I can at least opt out of seeing those followers across my path.

The mute feature isn't quite enough for this, since naturally people who follow Shanley will tend to retweet other related topics that have the same tenor. So unfortunately the best thing for my blood pressure is to simply unfollow people who have joined this movement.

Which is all a big shame, because I am a fervent believer in equality (gender or otherwise), and am just as violently opposed to people who discriminate against or insult women just because they're women as Shanley is. However, I am equally hostile to people who discriminate against or insult men just because they're men.

Re: An open letter on feminism in tech

#312

Post by brucefancher »

aaronem wrote: post #27

[Quick prefatory update: HN's throttling algorithm has decided, on the basis of five comments counting this one over the space of the last hour, that I'm "submitting too fast". It'll therefore be a fair while before I am able to respond to the replies I confidently expect this post to provoke.] You know, at base, I think this is a class issue. No, I don't mean in the Marxist sense, so all you libertarians who're even…

Yes, you are an effete, precious little snowflake.

Re: An open letter on feminism in tech

#313

Post by cafard »

optimusclimb wrote: post #3

It makes me sad to read this stuff, but a genuine question for other male readers. Have you heard of, or come into contact with any of this abhorrent behavior that's mentioned? I have never seen it anywhere I worked, or heard of that sort of thing through word of mouth, but obviously that's a terrible sample set. My experiences related to women in tech: * Everywhere I've worked, it's been a boys club, but we'd LOVE t…

Yes, and not only in tech. The drunken business owner who chased one of his employees around the table wasn't at a tech business.

Re: An open letter on feminism in tech

#314

Post by mreiland »

lhnz wrote: post #310
mreiland wrote: post #301

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If there's one thing I've learned in my 35 years on this planet, it's that telling someone they're irrational is not diplomatic. But it wasn't men you were talking about being diplomatic to, was it? It was women. I wonder if that diplomacy should also include men, and if so, how do you feel about the way feminists have been vilifying men? Or the way you just did, with your comment about MRA. Fair is fair, after all.

> If there's one thing I've learned in my 35 years on this planet, > it's that telling someone they're irrational is not diplomatic. Well, you did it first, I just pointed out that we'd all do better by listening to each other and having less certainty of our rationality. > I wonder if that diplomacy should also include men, and if so, > how do you feel about the way feminists have been vilifying men? I feel like it'…

You cannot quote me insulting you in any way, the closest you can get is the statement that a rational person can look at the pandering that happens from some men and conclude it isn't right either (yes, you are included in that group of 'some men').

It should also be noted that I'm not the one who is using diplomacy in their argument. My issue with you is the weak way in which you've pandered to feminists in general, while at the same time painting men and MRA as 'jerks'.

We are not jerks, nor is MRA about 'jerks'. It is unfortunate that you've chosen to buy that line, you should start being more proud of your gender.

If men and women are going to come to any sort of concensus on these sorts of issues, it's not going to happen by 1 side pandering to the other.

Re: An open letter on feminism in tech

#315

Post by steveklabnik »

swombat wrote: post #311
steveklabnik wrote: post #67

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Swombat and the founder of MVC have sparred over twitter numerous times, and he had to unfollow me because I retweet her often. Sometimes, people just don't like each other. (I have no beef with Swombat.)

For the record (Twitter was a poor medium for explaining this) I also have no beef with you - I just unfollowed because practically, seeing Shanley's tweets in my feed just makes my life less good by rubbing in my face that such people exist and have influence in the world. I can't do anything about the fact that people choose to follow anger, hatred and fear - but I can at least opt out of seeing those followers acr…

Yeah, no worries man.

Re: An open letter on feminism in tech

#316

Post by swombat »

srpablo wrote: post #183
swombat wrote: post #21

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I have seen it once, in one of my employees. I fired him. I still don't like the ultra-feminist movement though. Hate doesn't achieve much good.

I also hate things that are made up. http://www.harkavagrant.com/?id=341 Most people who feel animosity to feminists are attacking a caricature of them that can't be said to meaningfully exist. It also usually involves a misclassification of anger at a bad situation with 'hate.' The fact that you can read something like this article and connect it to anything hateful, let alone angry (it's not either) shows why many…

Read through https://twitter.com/shanley - give it a good hour. You'll come out thinking that you've experienced an alternate dimension, in which all men are evil, all women are victims who need to fight against the oppressor, and the only way forward is some kind of violent revolution, probably accompanied with mass executions of some sort.

It's not a caricature. Those people are real, and fairly scary. See http://squid314.livejournal.com/329561.html for why they're scary.

Re: An open letter on feminism in tech

#318

Post by joshuapants »

beat wrote: post #296
joshuapants wrote: post #171

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Under patriarchy, every woman's son is her potential betrayer and also the inevitable rapist or exploiter of another woman. Our Blood by Andrea Dworkin, 1976 It's not a strawmyn when it's based on reality. Not all feminists, not even all radical feminists espouse views like this, but they exist and to brush them under the rug impedes meaningful discourse.

Andrea Dworkin hardly represents the vast, vast majority of feminists. You're identifying an entire group with a lone, extremist, and broadly rejected voice. I don't think anyone is denying Andrea Dworkin exists. I think people are denying that she's relevant to this discussion, except as a way to keep blaming women.

Please don't put words in my mouth.

Re: An open letter on feminism in tech

#319

Post by joshuapants »

beat wrote: post #295
nailer wrote: post #260

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yes there is - radfem (which "ultra-feminist movement" would descrive) is a movement within third wave feminism.

Funny, I live with a college-age daughter who is an outspoken and studious third-wave feminist, and has been politically active since she was ten years old. She doesn't talk about radfem at all, or anything close to the "ultra-feminist" caricature. The third wave feminism I listen to constantly is about correcting the limitations of second wave feminism (Gloria Steinem style) and expanding our awareness and acceptanc…

So we're back to the "all feminist movements are entirely monolithic and my anecdotal experience is the only one that matters" canard.

Re: An open letter on feminism in tech

#320

Post by webmaven »

mreiland wrote: post #302
webmaven wrote: post #298

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The problem, at it's root, is a set of self-reinforcing cycles, such as: 1. More men than women 2. Male harrasers feel safe to harass women 3. Women do not feel welcome 4. Women leave 5. Goto 1 Or: 1. Harassers target women in ways that are deniable and/or less visible 2. Well meaning men assume that if they if don't see it, it must not be happening very often 3. Women get tired of having their personal experiences q…

And after the umpteenth time of someone telling me I'm a terrible person ... I decide to be terrible by not caring about it anymore. This is why your attitude is actively hurting you. It's driving away people like me, who actually agree with the basic premise that women should be treated equally.

Being part of of the problem (that is, tacitly consenting to bad behavior by staying silent and not confronting it directly) does not make you a terrible person, or even a bad one. It just means that you are part of the problem.

The thing is, you can't expect a cookie for not doing terrible things. Not doing terrible things is the absolute minimum that is expected of you as an adult member of society. Only doing the bare minimum doesn't make you a good person or a bad one, but it shouldn't really be surprising that the great majority of people who are merely not doing terrible things have an inertia that keeps things from improving, and are thus part of the problem.

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