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An open letter on feminism in tech

modelviewculture.com

61–70 of 335 posts

Re: An open letter on feminism in tech

#61
I just want to develop software, and I don't personally give a shit about the gender of the people I'm working with.

...Until they start shoving these sorts of issues down my throat. If I get to choose between the male that just wants to develop software and the female who wants to tell me all about how terrible it is working in our industry as a woman, I'm going to pick the male. Why? Because I'm very goal oriented and I just want to develop software. Take your fucking crusade somewhere else please.

OTOH, and this is the mystifying part, I've seen just as many men complaining about it as women. Guess which I'd choose if it was the female just working and the male going on about the female inequality? I'd prefer working with the female. That's what a lack of gender bias gets you.

Did you know I was once dismissed early from a job interview because I refused something to drink when it was offered to me(I had a weird suspicions and had it confirmed that the offer was a 'test')? I once got feedback from a job interview that the reason they didn't hire me was because I didn't show up with a notepad to take notes. And l lets be honest, that's not the real reason, I have it on good authority they already found who they wanted, but were fulfilling obligations.

I once had a CEO roll his eyes at me in the middle of a meeting and say something to the effect of "you software people...".

We've all experienced the bullshit. The truth is, people are stupid, biased creatures. yes. EVEN YOU.

Do you think ugly people have it harder than attractive people? Do you think younger people have it harder than older people in most industries? What about southern accents in a northing US state? Southern accents are considered "dumb", after all. I know of atleast 1 man from Rhode Island who refused to work with anyone from southern states because they were all dumb. That's a true story.

There are so many things that people can be biased about, yes, including gender.

The problem is that nothing has been so divisive in our industry in recent years as much as the "discussion" surrounding gender equality.

And me? I just want to fucking get work done. I don't care, not because I'm an asshole, but because I myself am not biased. Nor have I really seen a lot of bias in the places I've chosen to be. I have seen behavior that's resulted from the fact that males and females have a tendency to be attracted to each other. It's a fact of pretty much every facet of our lives. It isn't good, it isn't bad, it just is.

One thing I would like to address though.

I saw a complaint about "being called a cunt on a mailing list, and no one said anything about/to the person saying it".

That's equality for you. If someone called me a dick, or an asshole, on a mailing list, in no way would I expect others to rally to my defense. I'd have to make a choice. Do I respond in kind, do I not respond in kind, do I not respond at all? Do I escalate, do I de-escalate? Do I walk away for a few hours/days while I contemplate what to do, or do I simply blacklist the individual?

But at no point would I expect others to step in and defend me for me. I'll defend myself. I expect it of myself, and everyone else expects it of me as well, including the women. Is that gender bias on the women's part?

No, it's differing expectations. everyone will think the person is an asshole, whether they called the female a cunt, or the male a dick/asshole/what have you. But they may not say anything, that's life on both sides of that coin.

Someone calling you a bad name on a mailing list just means you got called a bad name. The name chosen may have been gender specific since you're female, but that doesn't indicate a bias. We live in a society with gender specific insults... and people not defending you isn't a bias either. Learn to defend yourself.

Now being groped is completely unacceptable behavior for both sides. That person should be dealt with immediately. There are few things I would agree someone needs to be called out for, but that sort of behavior is one of them.

tl;dr; STFU, develop software, and learn to defend yourself. I have shit I have to deal with too, but I didn't enter this industry to be told how terrible my gender is, I entered this industry because I love building software.

edit: One thing I should note. I've had women walk up to me and grab my ass before. It may not be as prevalent, but it happens both ways, and it's just as inappropriate both ways.

Re: An open letter on feminism in tech

#62
post #20

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You won't see most of these incidents, because harassers do it when there are few witnesses. Ask your female colleagues for their stories. They all have them. So how does this fit with your "Most of the engineers I know in tech are decent, upstanding guys." - it fits perfectly. Clearly you know some who aren't decent. It only takes one to harass, and he can harass a large number of women; in fact the pattern is commo…

I am one of the contributors to the parent article. We mention a whole slew of 'what happens when you report harassment' incidents: - http://www.theverge.com/2013/9/12/4693710/the-end-of-kindnes... - http://archive.today/20130110113908/jolieodell.wordpress.com... - http://blog.nerdchic.net/archives/705/ - https://medium.com/@geeekcore1/d96f431f4e8e - http://borderhouseblog.com/?p=5698 - http://www.feministfrequency.c…

Thanks for the links.

A question - Do you think (or have any information) on if this is particularly worse in tech, than in other industries?

Re: An open letter on feminism in tech

#63
post #34

this is one of the more thoughtful pieces i've read on the issue. it's obvious to anyone really paying attention the tech industry (and probably most other industries) has been extremely unfair to women. writing like this--clear on the problem and supportive of people who want to help--is important, but it's also important to remember that we all collectively have to act to actually change things.

Seriously. There are so few women in the tech industry, how would it be obvious to notice they have been unfairly treated?

One place I worked has a newspaper article on the wall about the high numbers of women hey hired. There were still only 3 on a floor of around 100 staff. All the places I have worked they have been treated as equals.

Re: An open letter on feminism in tech

#64
post #20

It makes me sad to read this stuff, but a genuine question for other male readers. Have you heard of, or come into contact with any of this abhorrent behavior that's mentioned? I have never seen it anywhere I worked, or heard of that sort of thing through word of mouth, but obviously that's a terrible sample set. My experiences related to women in tech: * Everywhere I've worked, it's been a boys club, but we'd LOVE t…

You won't see most of these incidents, because harassers do it when there are few witnesses. Ask your female colleagues for their stories. They all have them. So how does this fit with your "Most of the engineers I know in tech are decent, upstanding guys." - it fits perfectly. Clearly you know some who aren't decent. It only takes one to harass, and he can harass a large number of women; in fact the pattern is commo…

I feel strongly that we shouldn't allow ourselves to forget about the "death by a thousand cuts" aspect either. Even the "decent, upstanding guys" (a cohort that we are presumably a part of) are most likely responsible for a papercut or two (I certainly am). And these papercuts are just as profound a barrier in impeding progress in this area than the readily noticeable offenses, in my opinion.

Re: An open letter on feminism in tech

#65
post #25

I appreciate the authors taking the time to write this (unfortunately this HN comment page emphasizes the uphill climb ahead). But there's one thing in particular I, selfishly, appreciated them addressing: "Does this mean we’re going to get angry at you if you try to help and get it wrong?" This fear was something that kept me from speaking out for many years. I'm a guy in tech and I want to see change occur but I'm…

Compare that with http://jacobian.org/writing/what-can-men-do/ , which is linked to in the OP in which he criticizes Jeff Atwood for doing it wrong. So wrong that he won't even link to him, even though he acknowledges that his intentions are good. Edited to fix pronoun.

I assumed that was a dig at Jeff Atwood, who initially refused to link to Shanley's piece on the grounds that it was hateful.

Re: An open letter on feminism in tech

#66
post #20

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You won't see most of these incidents, because harassers do it when there are few witnesses. Ask your female colleagues for their stories. They all have them. So how does this fit with your "Most of the engineers I know in tech are decent, upstanding guys." - it fits perfectly. Clearly you know some who aren't decent. It only takes one to harass, and he can harass a large number of women; in fact the pattern is commo…

I am one of the contributors to the parent article. We mention a whole slew of 'what happens when you report harassment' incidents: - http://www.theverge.com/2013/9/12/4693710/the-end-of-kindnes... - http://archive.today/20130110113908/jolieodell.wordpress.com... - http://blog.nerdchic.net/archives/705/ - https://medium.com/@geeekcore1/d96f431f4e8e - http://borderhouseblog.com/?p=5698 - http://www.feministfrequency.c…

Noticed that you took the time to reformat the html that you initially pasted over. Thanks for taking the time to do that for us :).

Re: An open letter on feminism in tech

#67
post #31
post #21

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I have seen it once, in one of my employees. I fired him. I still don't like the ultra-feminist movement though. Hate doesn't achieve much good.

I feel uncomfortable that you have implicitly associated the parent article and its goals with extremism and hatred, which I don't observe.

Swombat and the founder of MVC have sparred over twitter numerous times, and he had to unfollow me because I retweet her often.

Sometimes, people just don't like each other. (I have no beef with Swombat.)

Re: An open letter on feminism in tech

#68

It makes me sad to read this stuff, but a genuine question for other male readers. Have you heard of, or come into contact with any of this abhorrent behavior that's mentioned? I have never seen it anywhere I worked, or heard of that sort of thing through word of mouth, but obviously that's a terrible sample set. My experiences related to women in tech: * Everywhere I've worked, it's been a boys club, but we'd LOVE t…

Why is this question only directed at men? Are women's views on this matter invalid because they're held by women?

I think you're thinking about it wrong. I believe women that this happens. I wasn't asking for "views" so much as, "what have you seen?"

Re: An open letter on feminism in tech

#69

It makes me sad to read this stuff, but a genuine question for other male readers. Have you heard of, or come into contact with any of this abhorrent behavior that's mentioned? I have never seen it anywhere I worked, or heard of that sort of thing through word of mouth, but obviously that's a terrible sample set. My experiences related to women in tech: * Everywhere I've worked, it's been a boys club, but we'd LOVE t…

Yes, I've seen this stuff, repeatedly, and passed off without comment.

More than that, I have the good sense to take my female colleagues at their word.

Re: An open letter on feminism in tech

#70

It makes me sad to read this stuff, but a genuine question for other male readers. Have you heard of, or come into contact with any of this abhorrent behavior that's mentioned? I have never seen it anywhere I worked, or heard of that sort of thing through word of mouth, but obviously that's a terrible sample set. My experiences related to women in tech: * Everywhere I've worked, it's been a boys club, but we'd LOVE t…

I have left a company because they flat-out refused to consider hiring women for coding jobs, with the CEO saying that women are too fragile for critical roles.

This kind of idiocy is relatively common in UK executives, as a fairly large chunk of them went to exclusive private boys schools and so never had to really deal with women as equal peers until adulthood.

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