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An open letter on feminism in tech

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Re: An open letter on feminism in tech

#301

Post by mreiland »

lhnz wrote: post #218
mreiland wrote: post #177

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>I don't think all men are out to get you. I also don't think there's a huge misogyny problem in the industry in comparison to some other industries and cultures I've mixed with. (Perhaps my bad luck.) This is my opinion from listening to the perspectives of the people around me and watching their behaviour around women. However I do think we have a significant diversity problem and that it's altering the interaction…

I'm not pandering to anybody. I actually believe what I wrote. But I do have a bias: I have a bias towards diplomacy. We all have biases and the sooner we admit that we're fallible minds that have lived just one life, not the objective thinkers we wish to present to our audience, the sooner we can begin to respect and listen to each other. > There's a large percentage of men who are either misogynistic, > and /or MRA…

If there's one thing I've learned in my 35 years on this planet, it's that telling someone they're irrational is not diplomatic.

But it wasn't men you were talking about being diplomatic to, was it? It was women.

I wonder if that diplomacy should also include men, and if so, how do you feel about the way feminists have been vilifying men? Or the way you just did, with your comment about MRA.

Fair is fair, after all.

Re: An open letter on feminism in tech

#302

Post by mreiland »

webmaven wrote: post #298
mreiland wrote: post #192

Earlier quoted context omitted.

it should be noted that pointing out #3 doesn't make it an invalid point, and it certainly has nothing to do with why the issue exists in the first place.

The problem, at it's root, is a set of self-reinforcing cycles, such as: 1. More men than women 2. Male harrasers feel safe to harass women 3. Women do not feel welcome 4. Women leave 5. Goto 1 Or: 1. Harassers target women in ways that are deniable and/or less visible 2. Well meaning men assume that if they if don't see it, it must not be happening very often 3. Women get tired of having their personal experiences q…

And after the umpteenth time of someone telling me I'm a terrible person ... I decide to be terrible by not caring about it anymore.

This is why your attitude is actively hurting you. It's driving away people like me, who actually agree with the basic premise that women should be treated equally.

Re: An open letter on feminism in tech

#303

Post by Ma8ee »

gress wrote: post #287
mreiland wrote: post #277

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think expecting a male to put himself at personal risk for a women who won't put herself at personal risk is unfair. We have no context, we don't know if the person in question doing the injustice was superior in the company, or not. All we know is person A did something bad to person B, and person C did nothing about it. Why shouldn't we ask my person B did nothing either?

Because there is a power imbalance.

I don't agree with mreiland about not sticking up, but I also want to point out something important that I get the impression that many feminists miss: That men in general have more power than women in general does not mean that all men have power, or that even most of them are in a position of power.

Re: An open letter on feminism in tech

#304

Post by graffic »

aaronem wrote: post #27

[Quick prefatory update: HN's throttling algorithm has decided, on the basis of five comments counting this one over the space of the last hour, that I'm "submitting too fast". It'll therefore be a fair while before I am able to respond to the replies I confidently expect this post to provoke.] You know, at base, I think this is a class issue. No, I don't mean in the Marxist sense, so all you libertarians who're even…

I totally agree with you it is a class issue. May I put it in other words? an asshole issue. How to behave around other "human beings" has been forgotten and a culture of attacking the different has evolved.

Why? Perhaps to protect the individual ideas and create echo chambers where people feel "safe" from criticism. Although without criticism (critical thinking), and without dealing with real world evidences... I fear we're getting nowhere.

It is a pity that something as MRAs exist: why should anyone need a specific gender movement to protect its rights. It is a failure that MGTOWs exist: why should anyone hate the environment created around its gender.

Keep the humanism up :)

Re: An open letter on feminism in tech

#305

Post by _bfhp »

nailer wrote: post #260
_bfhp wrote: post #111

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There is no "ultra-feminist movement"; feminism is an umbrella term for a multitude of movements across time and geography. Each movement is understood within a context, and some take more time to understand than others. I would suggest the book Gender Inequality by Judith Lorber as a starting point.

Yes there is - radfem (which "ultra-feminist movement" would descrive) is a movement within third wave feminism.

You're misinformed. "Radical" in "radical feminism" doesn't mean, has nothing to do with, "ultra"; it means a very specific strain of ideas, far from third-wave feminism.

Re: An open letter on feminism in tech

#306

Post by hunterloftis »

jdp23 wrote: post #231
bucketsbuckets wrote: post #211

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Most women in tech I know have multiple examples of stuff like the authors describe happening to them. Multiple guys in this thread confirm that yes, it happens and is observable. To reiterate, what you've demonstrated is that there are N anecdotes of sexual harassment in the industry, for some N > 0. (Set aside M anecdotes of men and women who have not personally encountered such a thing.) You have not demonstrate…

True, I haven't absolutely proven my point. What's your evidence disproving it?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Russell%27s_teapot

Re: An open letter on feminism in tech

#307

Post by hunterloftis »

gurkendoktor wrote: post #56
optimusclimb wrote: post #3

It makes me sad to read this stuff, but a genuine question for other male readers. Have you heard of, or come into contact with any of this abhorrent behavior that's mentioned? I have never seen it anywhere I worked, or heard of that sort of thing through word of mouth, but obviously that's a terrible sample set. My experiences related to women in tech: * Everywhere I've worked, it's been a boys club, but we'd LOVE t…

My experience has been the same as yours, but: > Make sure you interview with the same standards as anyone else Reading these open letters, isn't that The Wrong Thing? "Promote the fuck out of diversity" (from the OP) sounds as if we should strongly prefer female programmers, with a bigger focus on a healthy team than on skills alone. (Also related: http://readwrite.com/2014/01/24/github-meritocracy-rug ) I'm genuine…

> we should strongly prefer female programmers

this sort of mentality will encourage (and validate) concerns that female programmers are hired (and retained) because of gender rather than ability.

Re: An open letter on feminism in tech

#308

Post by hunterloftis »

ddagradi wrote: post #261
zo1 wrote: post #257

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Because you don't have a response other than to cherry pick sentences that sound bad out of context? Go right ahead, buddy.

> Because you don't have a response other than to cherry pick sentences that sound bad out of context? Go right ahead, buddy. You have a context that makes domestic violence acceptable? I sure didn't see it in your parent comment.

Engaging in unprotected sex with multiple partners while pretending otherwise with each is akin to playing Russian Roulette... with someone else's life.

Man or woman, yes, that sort of behavior deserves a beating.

Re: An open letter on feminism in tech

#309

Post by zo1 »

consz wrote: post #291
zo1 wrote: post #257

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Because you don't have a response other than to cherry pick sentences that sound bad out of context? Go right ahead, buddy.

That sentence sounds bad in any context, don't try to weasel out of it.

What, because it's in reference to a woman? Everyone's so smitten and keen to come to their aide, like shining white knights. But if it comes to a man, you would have no problem about it. That is the real sexism that no one wants to talk about, and it's rife in this thread. Endangering someone else's life deserves a beating, man or woman.

Re: An open letter on feminism in tech

#310

Post by lhnz »

mreiland wrote: post #301
lhnz wrote: post #218

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm not pandering to anybody. I actually believe what I wrote. But I do have a bias: I have a bias towards diplomacy. We all have biases and the sooner we admit that we're fallible minds that have lived just one life, not the objective thinkers we wish to present to our audience, the sooner we can begin to respect and listen to each other. > There's a large percentage of men who are either misogynistic, > and /or MRA…

If there's one thing I've learned in my 35 years on this planet, it's that telling someone they're irrational is not diplomatic. But it wasn't men you were talking about being diplomatic to, was it? It was women. I wonder if that diplomacy should also include men, and if so, how do you feel about the way feminists have been vilifying men? Or the way you just did, with your comment about MRA. Fair is fair, after all.

  > If there's one thing I've learned in my 35 years on this planet, 
  > it's that telling someone they're irrational is not diplomatic.
Well, you did it first, I just pointed out that we'd all do better by listening to each other and having less certainty of our rationality.

  > I wonder if that diplomacy should also include men, and if so, 
  > how do you feel about the way feminists have been vilifying men?
I feel like it's a bad 'weak men' argument as stated by my two paragraphs I wrote on it referring to the article by @slatestarcodex.

  *  *  *
I also feel that some aspects of feminism in technology can be neatly framed as rent-seeking behaviour. But, I think anybody that gives their wealth over to another because they have been guilted into believing that they should not truly own it (privilege narrative) are fools who should be parted with their money.

Also, I think that many in the MRA community are just too whiney to attempt to defend men. I could barely mount an argument for men like that.

I'm not a feminist. I listened to the article because it wasn't shouted at me, and I responded saying that some of the behaviour annoys me, that the normal lack of diplomacy normally makes me stop reading after 5 seconds, and that diversity is a problem because of the social interactions it creates but there isn't much misogyny to see. There's enough shared belief to be tapped here, and I'm pretty good at not jumping in with my own strong opinions when I can see a benefit in solving an underlying problem with others.

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