Girls and Software • Hacker News Board

Re: Girls and Software

#341

Post by aestra » Mon, Feb 10, 2014, 4:48 PM UTC

facepalm wrote: post #335

aestra wrote: post #313

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Here's your answers http://academics.hamilton.edu/government/home/government_375... >But "feminist scientists" (deliberate ") WANT to see discrimination. As soon as they see any data that can be interpreted to support the presence of discrimination, the case is closed and no further inquiry is being made. That's stupid. > I have never seen anybody ask an employer why they pay women less. There has actually been resea…

Ok I grudgingly started to read some of your links to procrastinate. The first one is rather useless. The second again shows the bias I am talking about. It starts with the example of more men than women being given teaching assignments. It turns out less women asked for them - the dean tries to give one to everyone who asks. Then the bias: they conclude that "women don't ask for the things they want". But that is a…

>The first one is rather useless.

No it isn't. It answers the questions you asked about why teachers favor boys in the classroom.

>But that is a bias - it is also possible they simply didn't want those things, and therefore didn't ask.

>Likewise with higher salary, perhaps women simply care less.

Read the damn book. The authors go on and give a class about negotiation in the school and starting salaries for women increased dramatically. If they didn't want higher salaries, that wouldn't have happened. They also released a followup to the book called "Ask for It" which taught asking and negotiation skills to women because women asked "ok, I don't ask for what I want, how can I learn how to ask for what I want?" If nobody cared then why would they demand a followup?

Re: Girls and Software

#342

Post by loladesoto » Mon, Feb 10, 2014, 4:49 PM UTC

i am one of 10 children (7 girls including myself and 3 boys). 100% of us went into STEM. what's more, we are Latino so growing up in a thoroughly geeky environment was, well, unique.

in high school i found safety in geeky societies like Academic Decathlon. i went to a science/engineering university and dropped out to work in tech. and as much as i love my work, i have always been aware (sometimes acutely) of being one of the only women in the room.

i'd be lying if it didn't chap my hide sometimes. i have skills commonly found among the male population (i am an entrepreneur, i know how to code) but it's a lonely existence. i still look like a woman, wear heels and makeup for the fun of it when i want to, and am relatively short! my point is, i stand out from the norm and people are constantly being surprised by me/my abilities. which means i have to do a lot of explaining and seeking out of mentors, rather than spending that time thriving in the simple assumption that i am precisely where i am supposed to be.

men have that. the really self-reflective ones realize that.

the awesome thing is, the women in my family have not only been fighting the good fight in STEM, they are passing the baton. each one of my nieces--all 8 of them--is encouraged to build, tear apart, and reconstruct stuff. these kids have to be torn away from Minecraft, unglued from their laptops and iPads. i teach girls how to code and do graphic design in my free time, and one of my favorite questions is: "When is the Maker Faire? When is the Maker Faire!" with sparkly eyes.

my experience in tech hasn't been like @HedgeMage's. although i didn't start coding until later in my career, i have always been a hacker and the dirty little secret is that girls just aren't encouraged to hack.

some of us are born that way, however. and that's a pretty amazing way to be on the inside, regardless of how we look or are treated on the outside.

Re: Girls and Software

#343

Post by aestra » Mon, Feb 10, 2014, 4:50 PM UTC

facepalm wrote: post #320

aestra wrote: post #313

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Here's your answers http://academics.hamilton.edu/government/home/government_375... >But "feminist scientists" (deliberate ") WANT to see discrimination. As soon as they see any data that can be interpreted to support the presence of discrimination, the case is closed and no further inquiry is being made. That's stupid. > I have never seen anybody ask an employer why they pay women less. There has actually been resea…

"This is mostly due to subconscious cultural influences and socialization of women rather than outright discrimination." And again your bias shows. What if there are natural reasons? Your assumption seems to be that women and men should act exactly equal, given "equality". What if that assumption is wrong? I already gave one example - women invest a lot of energy into child birth, so it seems natural that they have a…

>But when you find such a thing, like women asking for promotions less, why not learn from it and ask for a promotion?

Women are socialized to not ask for what they want from a young age. Many do not realize they can even ask for the things they want. Society tends to view women and men differently when they ask.

http://www.nytimes.com/2008/04/06/jobs/06pre.html

> The messages girls receive — from parents and teachers, from books they read, from movies and television shows they watch, and from behavior of the adults around them — can be so powerful that as women they may not even understand that their reluctance to ask for what they want is a learned behavior, and one that can be unlearned.

>More recent research that I conducted with two colleagues, Hannah Bowles and Lei Lai, points to another reason that women don’t ask: They face a much chillier reaction — from men and from women — when they do negotiate for what they want.

>Behavior that can lead a man to be seen as ambitious or a go-getter can brand a woman as too pushy and aggressive. She may be called rude names, receive negative evaluations based solely on her personal style instead of her work and find herself closed out of networks or opportunities from which she might benefit. My boss was pleased that I asked him for what I wanted. A lot of women aren’t so lucky.

http://www.forbes.com/sites/womensmedia/2012/07/02/nice-girl...

http://www.ncrw.org/LiteratureReviews/Gender-Negotiation

http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1111/ncmr.12022/abstra...

>Can you point to the study that shows that?

I have linked to many that you already refuse to read.

Here's some:

http://blogs.scientificamerican.com/unofficial-prognosis/201...

http://steinhardt.nyu.edu/scmsAdmin/uploads/006/923/Adolph,%...

http://www.newsweek.com/why-parents-may-cause-gender-differe...

http://www.nature.com/scitable/content/chapter-9-workplace-b...

http://naturalscience.com/ns/articles/01-08/ns_slee.html

>What if there are natural reasons?

We can't know that because society treats baby girls different from baby boys at birth.

Go take an anthropology class and learn about socialization. Nobody grew up in a bubble.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Socialization

Re: Girls and Software

#344

Post by e12e » Mon, Feb 10, 2014, 4:53 PM UTC

Crake wrote: post #325

e12e wrote: post #296

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I know tumblr likes to use the word "trigger" for just about everything While I also find the use of "trigger warnings" rather strange, that usage has to do with triggering reactions that stem from actual PTSD, not that the images themselves can induce it. I know shooting victims can be troubled by fireworks, I don't doubt abuse victims can be troubled (or triggered) by images as well. I don't think that alone shou…

>not that the images themselves can induce it And yet, that's exactly what people are doing here. >but that doesn't mean we can't try to empathize with those that have experienced terrible things either Please, continue to lecture someone with diagnosed PTSD about being nice to people with PTSD.

> I know tumblr likes to use the word "trigger" for just about everything

>> (...) that usage has to do with triggering reactions that stem from actual PTSD, not that the images themselves can induce it.

>>> And yet, that's exactly what people are doing here.

And I agree that that is silly, was that unclear? Or are you saying that images cannot trigger reactions? I know that for me, looking at images from a time/place of trauma can take me back -- but luckily I've never encountered a trauma severe enough to result in PTSD.

Friends that have seem to be quite easily shocked by related images (say a picture of an abusing spouse) -- and while PTSD is treatable (and therefore no-one is doomed to avoid certain images forever) that doesn't mean that there aren't periods after an incident it might be painful (and maybe counter to recovery) to be faced with certain images?

> that doesn't mean we can't try to empathize with those that have experienced terrible things either

>> Please, continue to lecture someone with diagnosed PTSD about being nice to people with PTSD.

I didn't say be nice (although I think it is good to be nice to people), I said empathize.

Re: Girls and Software

#345

Post by null_ptr » Mon, Feb 10, 2014, 4:56 PM UTC

superuser2 wrote: post #75

simias wrote: post #56

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't agree. Having unlimited access to technological resources is great, I don't think anybody is denying that. But with unlimited net access also comes extremely violent videos, social networks with all kinds of shady types hanging around etc... I really don't think it's responsible to let a 9-12 yo alone on the net in their room. Enabling them to access the net easily while still supervising what they do, giving…

>Enabling them to access the net easily while still supervising what they do The draw of programming for me was that I do could do interesting work and create something all by myself , by the force of my own mind. I loved it largely because I could do it independently, without mommy and daddy steering. I would have lost interest quickly had it been supervised. There aren't many other creative activities like that - h…

your CLI program in 2014 isn't very interesting to anyone else. Web and iOS applications are,

Web and iOS things are a dime a dozen, no offence. The only thing that matters is learning and having fun, and doing things your way. You can easily steer your learning towards marketable skills when the time comes.

Re: Girls and Software

#346

Post by casca » Mon, Feb 10, 2014, 5:06 PM UTC

VonGuard wrote: post #50

themade.org teaches free programming classes to kids. We've been doing this for 2 years now, and most of the time, our ratios are 50/50. Yesterday, in fact, we had 3 boys and 6 girls for our scratch class, then had 8 girls and 2 boys for our interactive fiction class, taught in Twine. Couple things we've learned. First, girls default to pair programming. They cluster, they work together, when they have a problem, the…

Do you have any material or guidance that could be used for people wanting to set up a similar programme in other parts of the world?

Re: Girls and Software

#347

Post by Crito » Mon, Feb 10, 2014, 5:10 PM UTC

judk wrote: post #256

Crito wrote: post #116

Earlier quoted context omitted.

When I was young, probably 12 or 13 I think, I saw a series of images of a spider bite on a mans thumb causing the thumb to swell, split open, go necrotic, and eventually require amputation. Did this damage me? No, I'm fine. I gagged when I saw the images, then I scrolled down and looked at some more. Lasting effects? Well today as an adult, I smash spiders when I see them. Not a big deal.

Well it seems to have stifled your compasssion for lower life forms, most of which are harmless.

Listen, I'm not an outdoorsy person, so if I see a spider then chances are that spider is intruding on human space.

Other things I don't allow in my home: ants, stray cats, earthworms, seagulls, termites, bears,... I operate with a whitelist when it comes to animals in my home.

Re: Girls and Software

#348

Post by aestra » Mon, Feb 10, 2014, 5:11 PM UTC

e12e wrote: post #337

facepalm wrote: post #332

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"that many take this into consideration" Whenever they do that, the wage gap tends to shrink to a very low number (I think 2 to 4%) - of course most feminist outlets prefer to quote the 23% or other higher numbers instead. I am not convinced that the remainder has to be "discrimination". Perhaps they just haven't thought of every possible factor? Take women in IT - how many samples did they even find for female progr…

> If you define feminism as "equality for men and women", most people would probably say they are feminists. dict feminism 1 definition found From WordNet (r) 3.0 (2006) [wn]: feminism n 1: a doctrine that advocates equal rights for women 2: the movement aimed at equal rights for women [syn:{feminist movement}, {feminism}, {women's liberation movement}, {women's lib}] Is there some other definition of which I'm not a…

> Is there some other definition of which I'm not aware?

He has already defined it all over this thread as

"It is the idea that women are victims and should get special treatment because of that" and anything else is "my version of feminism."

There's absolutely no convincing someone otherwise when they have already made up their mind like that. It's really a shame.

Re: Girls and Software

#349

Post by jami » Mon, Feb 10, 2014, 5:17 PM UTC

It's great that this author's upbringing was such that a robotics class for girls wasn't needed. My mom also taught her daughters that we're people, so of course I wanted a computer like the other smart kids at school (in the '80s).

But some children are raised to think of things as "for boys" and "for girls", and for those kids, a class for girls is absolutely useful. It isn't that those kids aren't naturally smart enough; it's that everything in their lives is telling them that robots are for boys. It's a shame that someone botched the explanation of the robotics class to her son.

Re: Girls and Software

#350

Post by seestheday » Mon, Feb 10, 2014, 5:25 PM UTC

danellis wrote: post #214

pjc50 wrote: post #135

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You can play without litigation waivers in most non-US countries. You can also kick a ball around in the street.

Well, you say you can kick a ball around in the street, but signs prohibiting ball games are a common sight in the UK at least.

Are you serious? Don't they have anywhere to play? Like a park? I find it hard to believe that poor kids don't have anywhere they can play.

If not, I don't know how better off people in the UK can live with themselves. I would also be seriously concerned about my safety in those areas.