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Girls and Software

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Re: Girls and Software

#111

Post by gemma »

facepalm wrote: post #76
dev1n wrote: post #67

Growing up watching shows like "Dexter's Laboratory" and "Jimmy Neutron Boy Genius" definitely shaped me as a child into the tech freak I am today. Girls getting barbies thrown at them when they are 12 does not help put girls into the tech sector. We need television shows like "Diane's Laboratory" or "Jennifer Neutron Girl Genius" to get girls interested in tech. Hit 'em when they're young.

Girls don't get barbies thrown at them, they beg for them. The are expensive, too.

When I was 8 or so, a relative gave me a huge pink plastic box full of barbies and barbie accessories. I hadn't asked for it, and I wasn't entirely sure what to do with it, but I said thanks and tried my hand at playing with barbies, because that's what was expected of me. After that, I kept receiving dolls as gifts--plastic dolls, porcelain dolls, dolls on stands, dolls in cases. I tried playing with all of them, because that's what I was supposed to do. I never got it, and I learned that I was abnormal because I didn't really like dolls.

What we tacitly expect of kids does shape them, to an extent.

Re: Girls and Software

#112

Post by HedgeMage »

marquis wrote: post #97
krstck wrote: post #51

Oooh, this was an icy stab right at the core. She's completely right: >Dump her in a situation that operates on different social scripts than she's accustomed to, full of people talking about a subject she doesn't yet understand. Then tell her the community is hostile toward women and therefore doesn't have enough of them, all while showing her off like a prize poodle so you can feel good about recruiting a females T…

That's the reason why classes for girls (not necessarily primarily but directed towards) work so well. Being in a room full of men with few or no women in ANY circumstance is awkward unless you are top of your game.

Sure, it might be awkward at first for girls who don't have a lot of experience in mixed-gender environments. If it's a friendly mixed-gender environment, the awkwardness wears off pretty soon. I've watched it happen.

On the other hand, "foo for women" events are high-pressure environments that put a spotlight on poor newbies. It's a way of saying "You aren't just here to learn something, you're representing women, you're here to prove something for all of us". It implies that the mainstream groups aren't safe or okay places for women to learn. Additionally, they prevent those newbie women from learning the social scripts and memes that will help them fit in with mainstream hacker culture (or even programmer culture), so they get to be total outsiders as juniors instead of as freshmen, which really sucks.

Re: Girls and Software

#113

Post by mattmanser »

superuser2 wrote: post #75
simias wrote: post #56

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't agree. Having unlimited access to technological resources is great, I don't think anybody is denying that. But with unlimited net access also comes extremely violent videos, social networks with all kinds of shady types hanging around etc... I really don't think it's responsible to let a 9-12 yo alone on the net in their room. Enabling them to access the net easily while still supervising what they do, giving…

>Enabling them to access the net easily while still supervising what they do The draw of programming for me was that I do could do interesting work and create something all by myself , by the force of my own mind. I loved it largely because I could do it independently, without mommy and daddy steering. I would have lost interest quickly had it been supervised. There aren't many other creative activities like that - h…

I almost posted exactly the same post as simias earlier, your post worries me a bit as you don't seem to understand there's been generations of hackers who had no internet access.

I learnt programming on my school computers in lunch times and on a graphical calculator. I really didn't have much interest in programming at home.

It almost feels like you didn't read the article, the author talks about more generic problem solving, fixing a bit of tech, building with Lego. They're the core of hacking, that's what we need to stop labeling 'boy' in children's minds.

A hacker needs to be encouraged to tinker. They honestly don't need private web access to do that. Most of my time near computers was supervized, though I didn't think of it that way at the time.

And there are a lot of people who are affected by watching people hang. I doubt any parent would allow their 12 yo access to that.

Re: Girls and Software

#114

Post by Crito »

superuser2 wrote: post #12

>Parents are warned to keep kids off the computer This point cannot be overstated. I'd never have been a hacker without vast quantities of unsupervised, unfiltered internet time around age 9-12. The largest enabling step for me was when I got my own laptop which I was free to break (software-wise) and free to take into my room so I could focus away from the distracting noises of the kitchen/living room. Much of even…

I think that even with parents doing their best to keep kids off computers, kids will find a way to stay on computers if it is their passion.

Probably about half the time as a 10-16 year old (after 16, my parents stopped caring about what I did or where I went at all) I was banned from computer use for various reasons. That didn't stop me though, I'd go to bed at 10pm, wake up at 2am, then use it until school.

Was four hours of sleep every night good for me? Probably not, but kids can get away with that sort of thing.

(I was also banned from having my own email address, using IRC or any sort of chat program, having my own blog... Basically my parents were deathly afraid that I would talk to any of my peers, even though they were sending me to public school. Most of my computer bans were for violations of these rules. Circumventing enforcement of these various rules was a significant driving factor in my self-education)

Re: Girls and Software

#115

Post by sillysaurus2 »

timr wrote: post #49
sillysaurus2 wrote: post #41

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Indeed! This is a great example, thanks.

You should also stop and consider, for just a moment, that if the only stories that can convince you need to be famous, you're working in a very narrow space of human experience. It's a big world out there, and there are a lot of smart people who will defy your expectations.

Actually, it's not inherently about fame. It has to do with whether the hackers are skilled. Pg goes into why it's difficult to compare hacker skill in one of his essays, though I forget which. But the summary is that nobody knows who the most talented hackers are, because you have to work with them to know how talented they are. Therefore fame is the only metric that makes sense in this case to derive hard evidence. Fame is a proxy for many people having recognized their talent, and the original question was about talent.

Re: Girls and Software

#116

Post by Crito »

simias wrote: post #56
superuser2 wrote: post #12

>Parents are warned to keep kids off the computer This point cannot be overstated. I'd never have been a hacker without vast quantities of unsupervised, unfiltered internet time around age 9-12. The largest enabling step for me was when I got my own laptop which I was free to break (software-wise) and free to take into my room so I could focus away from the distracting noises of the kitchen/living room. Much of even…

I don't agree. Having unlimited access to technological resources is great, I don't think anybody is denying that. But with unlimited net access also comes extremely violent videos, social networks with all kinds of shady types hanging around etc... I really don't think it's responsible to let a 9-12 yo alone on the net in their room. Enabling them to access the net easily while still supervising what they do, giving…

When I was young, probably 12 or 13 I think, I saw a series of images of a spider bite on a mans thumb causing the thumb to swell, split open, go necrotic, and eventually require amputation.

Did this damage me? No, I'm fine. I gagged when I saw the images, then I scrolled down and looked at some more. Lasting effects? Well today as an adult, I smash spiders when I see them. Not a big deal.

Re: Girls and Software

#117

Post by [deleted] »

mistakoala wrote: post #60

I groaned at what sounded like another SJW article on 'teh evil patriarchy of technology'. I'm glad I read on for an interesting and original viewpoint. More Susan Sons' and fewer Adria Richards', please. The former have meaningful and constructive contributions to make while the latter just make political hay for their own self-interest. As a learner, the perception of an increased emphasis on identity politics is o…

[deleted]

Re: Girls and Software

#118

Post by kazagistar »

superuser2 wrote: post #12

>Parents are warned to keep kids off the computer This point cannot be overstated. I'd never have been a hacker without vast quantities of unsupervised, unfiltered internet time around age 9-12. The largest enabling step for me was when I got my own laptop which I was free to break (software-wise) and free to take into my room so I could focus away from the distracting noises of the kitchen/living room. Much of even…

My parents limited my video game time, but I managed to convince them that using my game creator software or editing starcraft macros counted as a different category. "Haha, I can build games and play them under the guise of 'testing', I showed them!"

Now programming is my job and my hobby. Turns out my parents are smarter then I gave em credit for at the time.

Re: Girls and Software

#119

Post by mistakoala »

[deleted] wrote: post #117
mistakoala wrote: post #60

I groaned at what sounded like another SJW article on 'teh evil patriarchy of technology'. I'm glad I read on for an interesting and original viewpoint. More Susan Sons' and fewer Adria Richards', please. The former have meaningful and constructive contributions to make while the latter just make political hay for their own self-interest. As a learner, the perception of an increased emphasis on identity politics is o…

[deleted]

Nope. It's not a view with claims that I've seen expressed before. To me it is an original viewpoint.

Re: Girls and Software

#120

Post by arrrg »

Nice, complete misunderstanding of feminism and what most people argue for. Nice attacking of straw men. Nice rant for the status quo.

I’m sad now.

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