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Girls and Software

linuxjournal.com

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Re: Girls and Software

#11

Post by gms »

forgottenpass wrote: post #2

I resubmitted this because it seems like an viewpoint that's important in the larger gender in tech conversation, but the author seems to be outside the mainstream conversation (or at lest what I see of it on Hacker News). Sadly it looks like this submission is dying an even more uneventful death than the first time it was posted.

I'm quite glad you submitted it; thanks.

Unfortunate that such an online article could only have been written by a woman, as the likelihood of being on the receiving end of outrage is too high had it come from a man.

Re: Girls and Software

#12

Post by superuser2 »

>Parents are warned to keep kids off the computer

This point cannot be overstated. I'd never have been a hacker without vast quantities of unsupervised, unfiltered internet time around age 9-12.

The largest enabling step for me was when I got my own laptop which I was free to break (software-wise) and free to take into my room so I could focus away from the distracting noises of the kitchen/living room.

Much of even the HN community would consider this irresponsible parenting. Probably even my parents wouldn't have let a daughter talk to strangers on IRC about something they don't understand. But how else is someone with nontechnical parents supposed to get started?

It's sooo much different when it's something you choose to do with your free time, rather than something half-assedly forced on you by parents or school curriculum. Especially to a kid.

Re: Girls and Software

#13

Post by jt2190 »

I'm not sure I understand what the definition of "hacker" is in this article:

  > Young women don't magically become technologists at 22. 
  > Neither do young men. Hackers are born in childhood, 
  > because that's when the addiction to solving the 
  > puzzle or building something kicks in to those who've 
  > experienced that "victory!" moment like I had when I 
  > imposed my will on a couple electronic primates.
It seems to imply that people who simply make their living programming computers, and who came to programming when they were older, aren't "hackers". Am I missing something?

(Edit: Given that programming careers can be quite lucrative, and that careers in general are now quite long, it makes economic sense that people would want to join in later in their lives. Short of building a time machine to correct past parenting, must these people be permanently excluded from the industry?)

Re: Girls and Software

#14

Post by timr »

I'm torn. I think she makes some really good points -- particularly about discouraging young girls and the futility of shoving adult humans into foreign social situations -- but I also think she might be rather narrowly defining the personality type of a "hacker", and dismissing behaviors that she doesn't find valuable (in her words: "ephemera -- popularity, beauty and fitting in").

Maybe it's possible that there are plenty of people out there who care about "ephemera", and yet are also capable of programming a computer or soldering things together? I think it's possible. And when I read stuff like this:

"Sometimes I want to shout 'you're not a programmer, what are you doing here?!'"

it makes me think: this might be a problem. Is it harder to be a hacker if you also have an interest in social media and graphic design and popularity and friendships? Are we defining "hacker" to include only people with bad social skills and no interest outside of technology? I hope not.

Re: Girls and Software

#15

Post by ForHackernews »

jt2190 wrote: post #13

I'm not sure I understand what the definition of "hacker" is in this article: > Young women don't magically become technologists at 22. > Neither do young men. Hackers are born in childhood, > because that's when the addiction to solving the > puzzle or building something kicks in to those who've > experienced that "victory!" moment like I had when I > imposed my will on a couple electronic primates. It seems to impl…

Not all programmers are hackers. Not all hackers are programmers.

http://www.catb.org/jargon/html/H/hacker.html

Re: Girls and Software

#16

Post by weland »

superuser2 wrote: post #12

>Parents are warned to keep kids off the computer This point cannot be overstated. I'd never have been a hacker without vast quantities of unsupervised, unfiltered internet time around age 9-12. The largest enabling step for me was when I got my own laptop which I was free to break (software-wise) and free to take into my room so I could focus away from the distracting noises of the kitchen/living room. Much of even…

Yes! Had it not been for the incredible amount of time I spent unsupervised on the Internet, I wouldn't be as good a programmer as I am today.

Did I watch porn before I was of legal age? Yep, and I'm in a happy relationship with no sex problems. Break my computer often? Yep, I'd repair it every few days. I was also exposed to a variety of cultures, read about every operating system on Earth (toyed with emulated PDP-11s and VAXen and C64s for days and days) and wrote in every obscure language there is just because I was a kid and had enough time not to worry about whether spending a week to learn Forth was worth the hours I was putting into it.

Re: Girls and Software

#17

Post by sillysaurus2 »

superuser2 wrote: post #12

>Parents are warned to keep kids off the computer This point cannot be overstated. I'd never have been a hacker without vast quantities of unsupervised, unfiltered internet time around age 9-12. The largest enabling step for me was when I got my own laptop which I was free to break (software-wise) and free to take into my room so I could focus away from the distracting noises of the kitchen/living room. Much of even…

This point cannot be overstated. I'd never have been a hacker without vast quantities of unsupervised, unfiltered internet time around age 9-12.

Same here. Emphasis on "vast quantities," "unsupervised," and "unfiltered." All three were required.

Re: Girls and Software

#18

Post by sillysaurus2 »

timr wrote: post #14

I'm torn. I think she makes some really good points -- particularly about discouraging young girls and the futility of shoving adult humans into foreign social situations -- but I also think she might be rather narrowly defining the personality type of a "hacker", and dismissing behaviors that she doesn't find valuable (in her words: "ephemera -- popularity, beauty and fitting in" ). Maybe it's possible that there ar…

Maybe it's possible that there are plenty of people out there who care about "ephemera", and yet are also capable of programming a computer or soldering things together? I think it's possible.

Sure, Jobs did. On the other hand, Woz was the tech genius, not Jobs.

I've never heard of a tech genius who also cared much about the qualities you mention. This seems more than a coincidence. If it were, then there'd probably be at least one counterexample. Is there someone who is at the level of Woz or Blackwell who also cares about popularity, beauty, and fitting in?

Re: Girls and Software

#19

Post by japhyr »

superuser2 wrote: post #12

>Parents are warned to keep kids off the computer This point cannot be overstated. I'd never have been a hacker without vast quantities of unsupervised, unfiltered internet time around age 9-12. The largest enabling step for me was when I got my own laptop which I was free to break (software-wise) and free to take into my room so I could focus away from the distracting noises of the kitchen/living room. Much of even…

> which I was free to break (software-wise)

I'm curious, were you on a linux os? Did you break your software often?

It seems to me people who get on linux early might have an easier time, because they can so easily break their system and rebuild it. It seems like a kid who breaks a windows/ mac os might need to go to their parents to deal with license keys, which might cause the parents to say "no more hacking".

Re: Girls and Software

#20

Post by superuser2 »

timr wrote: post #14

I'm torn. I think she makes some really good points -- particularly about discouraging young girls and the futility of shoving adult humans into foreign social situations -- but I also think she might be rather narrowly defining the personality type of a "hacker", and dismissing behaviors that she doesn't find valuable (in her words: "ephemera -- popularity, beauty and fitting in" ). Maybe it's possible that there ar…

>you also have an interest in social media and graphic design

You added an "also." The criticism was of "women-in-tech" advocates who are solely "women-in-tech" advocates/PR people/designers and who are not programmers.

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