What is really happening in Ukraine • Hacker News Board

Re: What is really happening in Ukraine

#251

Post by darkbot » Mon, Jan 27, 2014, 6:53 PM UTC

strlen wrote: post #216

darkbot wrote: post #157

Wow, some this is some epic propaganda. Closer to truth is that this is more a coup-d'etat by the Ukrainian fascist paramilitary. The liberal Ukrainian opposition has been chased out of greater parts of the Maidan square and is now in control of "Right Sector", a loosely based umbrella coalition between various fascist and nazi organisations and parties. These extremist wants to ignite a civil war to "cleanse Ukraine…

> No, I am not Ukranian, nor Russian. Also I don't support either side. I think either regime is equally corrupted. I am sorry, but as an ethnically Jewish, Belarusian-born, Russian-speaker residing in US, I have to say what you're engaging in is the equivalent of "mansplaining" (EDIT: or "patronizing" if you prefer). To wit, on my Facebook, the only person who is presently in Ukraine (who attended school and a unive…

> It is very much in Russia's interest to make sure ultra-nationalists become the dominant party in this

Honest question: How is this in Russia's interest? The paramilitary UNA-UNSO helped fighting the Russian military in both the Abkhazian and the Chechnya conflicts, according to their own account.

Re: What is really happening in Ukraine

#252

Post by dmytrish » Mon, Jan 27, 2014, 6:53 PM UTC

dimitar wrote: post #238

bitL wrote: post #11

Why don't you guys split Ukraine into two parts? The western part (pre-WW2's part of Poland) is pro-western, speaking Ukrainian, the eastern part is mostly inhabited by Russians that gravitate towards Moscow. Why nobody suggests this solution?

I upvoted this comment due to its honesty, but I disagree that Ukraine needs dividing. Let me bring up some points: * Why should apolitical people have their country divided? * Ukraine isn't divided by language, practically everyone can use both to a different extent and there is no miscommunication. The language that you use most of the time doesn't have to match your politics and often doesn't. * ~80% percent of th…

I agree with all your points with a minor exception: Crimea does have more than 50% Russians[0] - it's the only region that has more Russians than Ukrainians.

[0] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Crimea#Demographics

Re: What is really happening in Ukraine

#253

Post by strlen » Mon, Jan 27, 2014, 6:55 PM UTC

darkbot wrote: post #239

strlen wrote: post #216

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> No, I am not Ukranian, nor Russian. Also I don't support either side. I think either regime is equally corrupted. I am sorry, but as an ethnically Jewish, Belarusian-born, Russian-speaker residing in US, I have to say what you're engaging in is the equivalent of "mansplaining" (EDIT: or "patronizing" if you prefer). To wit, on my Facebook, the only person who is presently in Ukraine (who attended school and a unive…

That JTA article is almsot 2 months old. A lot has changed since then. A lot has changed just in the last 5 days.

The politics here, however, is far older than two months. Participation by my Russian-speaking Jewish friend is current as of today and the Russian language message I mentioned is from January 23rd (four day old).

Re: What is really happening in Ukraine

#254

Post by memracom » Mon, Jan 27, 2014, 6:57 PM UTC

gtrubetskoy wrote: post #67

What is really happening in Ukraine is that both sides of this conflict (pro-Euro and against) are absolutely corrupt and the people know it. The tragedy of this is that no one from the government or opposition represents the will of the people. The population of Ukraine really just wants an end to corruption and a better national identity, euro-integration was just the last straw, but not fundamental to this crisis…

Exactly!

And how many of you have actually read the agreement that the EU presented to Yanukovich to sign. You will be surprised at the scope of the changes that Ukraine would have to implement. [http://eeas.europa.eu/ukraine/assoagreement/assoagreement-20...]

It is hard to believe that Ukrainian citizens are even aware of the details in this agreement. How can they decide whether or not it is a good deal if they do not even know the details?

Too many Ukrainians believe that this agreement would give them visa free travel to the EU (it would NOT) so that they could go there, get a job, save up the money and come home to buy a house and live a life of ease. This actually happened to a lot of Polish workers when Poland joined the EU, but the EU economy was in a different state back then. Since that time the EU has imposed strict rules around new members working in the EU so that Rumania and Bulgaria did not experience that same gold-paved road that the Poles experienced.

Re: What is really happening in Ukraine

#255

Post by tptacek » Mon, Jan 27, 2014, 6:59 PM UTC

work_account_1 wrote: post #241

tptacek wrote: post #193

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Look at the options more carefully: (1) Leave al-Awlaki alone, situated in the middle of AQAP home territory, and hope that he doesn't succeed in his evident ambitions to coordinate attacks against Europe, America, India, Russia, and Indonesia. This is the strategy Clinton employed against Osama bin Laden and Ayman al-Zawahiri. You and I might debate it, but a realistic analysis of the circumstances of al-Awlaki has…

Are those seriously the only options? Ignore, kill a US citizen with a drone strike, or have a full-out invasion resulting in hundreds or thousands killed? Citizenship can be revoked, but I'm pretty sure that matter needs to be decided by a judge, not the President. Am I incorrect?

What's the other option you're thinking about?

The US cannot unilaterally revoke citizenship.

Re: What is really happening in Ukraine

#256

Post by tptacek » Mon, Jan 27, 2014, 7:01 PM UTC

work_account_1 wrote: post #243

tptacek wrote: post #187

Earlier quoted context omitted.

A trial in absentia would have been preferable to a fiat killing, but the end result would have been the same. The US had no means of apprehending al-Awlaki because he had situated himself in a war zone controlled by AQAP. The trial would have concluded, and the US would have faced the same 3 choices. You make a good point, but not one that fundamentally changed the options on the ground.

Those options would then be OK to consider. Would you be OK with skipping trials for people here in the US if we were sure they'd be found guilty anyway, so the end result should be the same?

How is that not a silly question?

Re: What is really happening in Ukraine

#257

Post by arca_vorago » Mon, Jan 27, 2014, 7:01 PM UTC

Demiurge wrote: post #113

arca_vorago wrote: post #62

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Point taken, but as a person who tries very hard to not let my filter bubble be too small, I am surprised at the lack of people talking about what I suppose could be considered the North Ukrainian point of view. I did see a few mentions that they would be more aligned to Russia, but haven't seen any in depth reporting from that perspective. Have you seen such?

Yes, the issue is, this is quiet majority. The subject is contentious enough that people who are not pro EU keep quiet about it, because they don't feel as strongly about it as the 'revolution' people. On one hand, you have people say "the problem is clear, hang Putin, hang Yanukovich! If we join EU we will be transported to Paris!". On the other hand you have people who just think that's unrealistic, but they can't…

Can you link any of this, please? I am genuinely interested.

Re: What is really happening in Ukraine

#258

Post by nate_meurer » Mon, Jan 27, 2014, 7:03 PM UTC

rayiner wrote: post #202

ash wrote: post #180

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What about (4) trial in absentia? Is it possible under US laws?

Al Awlaki was tried in abstentia by Yemen in 2010. It is often suggested that a trial in abstentia by the U.S. would have been preferable for Al Awlaki, but to me, it's even scarier than the drone strike. Legally, there are essentially two regimes: the domestic criminal regime, and the military regime. If you fall into the former bucket, there are lots of protections. Trials in abstentia, for example, are illegal and…

Your last few sentences have me very confused.

>"at least its encapsulated: you're in a war zone..."

Yemen is not a war zone in any sense of the word. There is no declared war on Yemeni soil. You could call it a "conflict zone", a term that could be applied to the vast majority of the developing world.

>"...a place without functioning rule of law, and pose a military threat, you're fair game."

According to John Yoo and Eric Holder maybe. There is plenty of dissent over this particular doctrine.

>"If a terrorist is just a "really bad criminal..."

Terrorists are really bad criminals. Are you able to draw a bright line between the two? If not, then what's the use of the distinction?

>"...instead of a foreign soldier..."

Al Awlaki was unambigously NOT a foreign soldier. He was never uniformed, he was not in a declared war zone, and he was not a citizen of a foreign nation. Unless I'm an idiot (always possible) there has never been any debate about this.

>"in what other cases of "really bad criminals" do Constitutional protections go out the window?"

None? A trial in absentia does not forcibly deprive the defendant of any rights if he is free to attend the trial, which Al Awlaki was. It would have been his choice whether to attend, and thus whether to take full advantage of his rights as a citizen.

Am I mistaken?

Re: What is really happening in Ukraine

#259

Post by memracom » Mon, Jan 27, 2014, 7:05 PM UTC

Demiurge wrote: post #139

ds9 wrote: post #115

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Are you calling it propaganda only because the authors used the term "civil war"? Or are you saying that the statements about the origin of the conflict, in the early slides, are untrue? If the latter, please say why you think so and what the actual facts are.

I call this propaganda because the authors used many emotionally charged terms and slogans, claim to speak for the people, claim authority on things that they not only don't source, they can't possibly know. In all, this is clearly a plea for emotional response in support of a particular side. Lastly, it is the positive claim that needs facts. You can't prove a negative, even with facts.

Seems so obvious to us on HN but why do journalists in many Western countries miss this obvious issue with what is coming out of Ukraine? Is there no investigative journalism anymore?

Even when the protesters are throwing rocks and petrol bombs, the press still describes them as democratic protesters, and even sometimes still describes them as peaceful.

Someone really should ask, "Why are there so many angry young men in Ukraine?" That might lead to some real truth on what is going on. I have personal connections to Ukraine and I suspect that the real problem is hopelessness for the future caused by severe economic privation in the face of media depictions of wealth in other countries.

Re: What is really happening in Ukraine

#260

Post by dmytrish » Mon, Jan 27, 2014, 7:09 PM UTC

adrenalinup wrote: post #190

sethbannon wrote: post #74

People being kidnapped from hospital beds and tortured by their own government. It's hard to imagine a more depraved situation.

We had a similar situation in Republic of Moldova in 2009, an ex-USSR country near Ukraine, a so called twitter-revolution, one of the first of them. [1] We are much smaller and less population but the tactics used in Ukraine reminds me of the events Moldova but on a bigger scale. So called "titushki" are the instigators that are infiltrating among peaceful protesting population with the intention to compromise the e…

Shame for Ukrainian media that these events has passed by me unnoticed. Thank you for this insight and good luck in fighting the USSR past!