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What is really happening in Ukraine

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Re: What is really happening in Ukraine

#111

Post by iaskwhy »

xutopia wrote: post #80
Demiurge wrote: post #45

Earlier quoted context omitted.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cuO53xeZkm8 Does this look like brave people risking their lives to say "No!" to tyranny, or like a bunch of young energetic people who have no idea about whats going on in politics throwing molotov cocktails at police?

Look at the channel this comes from: https://www.youtube.com/user/dzgmvs?feature=watch It looks like a ministry or something is releasing these videos. I live in Quebec and in August 2007 one branch of our police force did a false flag operation to discredit protesters and legitimize the use of force on civilians. They got caught by pacifist protesters who noticed the boots of the undercover cops were wearing the sam…

Similar thing happened in at least one case in Portugal: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JS8ak6zQzc4

You can see a cop with a hoodie in the middle of the other policemen beating a reporter. It was showed in all news reports, they even interviewed the ministry about it but nothing happened. It is believed this happens in a lot more situations but it's really hard to proove.

Re: What is really happening in Ukraine

#112

Post by gfodor »

hobbes wrote: post #105
galenko wrote: post #92

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You stood up for your country, then the government hurt you so bad, that you were taken to the hospital, the government then came to the hospital, took you from there, proceeded to undress and torture you. They then threw you out on a cold field to die (it's -14C there). That vs. Walking down the road, boom, a lot of me is missing, shock, I'm gonna die, ouch, ouch, dead. I know which way I'd prefer to go if it was do…

The choice you are making between different ways of dying has nothing do to with the point being made.

And the point being made has nothing to do with the protests in Ukraine.

Re: What is really happening in Ukraine

#113

Post by Demiurge »

arca_vorago wrote: post #62
Demiurge wrote: post #41

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I wonder what you'll think if you have another friend who is saying completely the opposite.

Point taken, but as a person who tries very hard to not let my filter bubble be too small, I am surprised at the lack of people talking about what I suppose could be considered the North Ukrainian point of view. I did see a few mentions that they would be more aligned to Russia, but haven't seen any in depth reporting from that perspective. Have you seen such?

Yes, the issue is, this is quiet majority. The subject is contentious enough that people who are not pro EU keep quiet about it, because they don't feel as strongly about it as the 'revolution' people. On one hand, you have people say "the problem is clear, hang Putin, hang Yanukovich! If we join EU we will be transported to Paris!". On the other hand you have people who just think that's unrealistic, but they can't put it in a slogan.

Re: What is really happening in Ukraine

#114

Post by mathetic »

Demiurge wrote: post #87
akjj wrote: post #64

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Protestors weren't taking over government buildings during G8 conferences.

That's a good point, but they would have, if they had lots of small unguarded municipal buildings. Not to be sarcastic, this is still just a few thousands of extremists being destructive. A Civil War is when you have armed forces on both sides, a big population willing to take arms. Most adult people want this to stop and get back to work.

You are correct from an historian's point of view. If one side is asymmetrically stronger than the other one, the powerful side simple destroys the other side and declare them terrorists (or extremists).

When you are in hell rather than a history textbook, however, what you care is whether your most basic rights are violated or not eg. torture, kidnap, murder. In that case you take whatever you have at hand go outside and do what you think is right. The majority may want to get back to work and that might be the sustainable/profitable/reasonable thing to do. The question is whether it is the right thing or not?

Re: What is really happening in Ukraine

#115

Post by ds9 »

Demiurge wrote: post #35

This is propaganda and has no place on Hacker News. Anything that says 'Civil War Has Been Ignited", when there is no civil war YET, is war mongering for some cause.

Are you calling it propaganda only because the authors used the term "civil war"? Or are you saying that the statements about the origin of the conflict, in the early slides, are untrue? If the latter, please say why you think so and what the actual facts are.

Re: What is really happening in Ukraine

#116

Post by sp332 »

Demiurge wrote: post #100
xutopia wrote: post #80

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Look at the channel this comes from: https://www.youtube.com/user/dzgmvs?feature=watch It looks like a ministry or something is releasing these videos. I live in Quebec and in August 2007 one branch of our police force did a false flag operation to discredit protesters and legitimize the use of force on civilians. They got caught by pacifist protesters who noticed the boots of the undercover cops were wearing the sam…

I don't have time to watch at work, but did anyone in those videos actually get their face burned off?

This guy http://imgur.com/a/lnawg#157

Re: What is really happening in Ukraine

#118

Post by dmytrish »

randomafrican wrote: post #46
mtrimpe wrote: post #4

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's not so much about whether they speak Russian or not. Eastern Ukraine is just generally closer ideologically to Russia whereas Western Ukraine prefers to maintain close ties with Europe. You can see that reflected quite clearly in the split between west and east in where the protests are. In general the president is supported by the eastern part of Ukraine, but is also a convicted criminal who sent the previous p…

>who sent the previous president to jail on trumped up charges Previous Prime Minister. And I'm not 100% sure the charges are totally trumped up. Not that it changes anything.

Yes, Tymoshenko is not an angel by any means, but her conviction was clearly a political act to frighten other possible rivals with selective justice. Also, this was a great deal to gain some Putin's favor.

Re: What is really happening in Ukraine

#119

Post by LaGrange »

euphemize wrote: post #94

I wish those underlined words were links to sources or any kind of data. I haven't been following very closely and although I'm not putting in doubt what's on the slides (people on here seem to be more or less corroborating the data), there are lots of claims I'd like to read up on. Maybe a slide at the end with more info?

This is your data. Yeah, the quality of this data is rather poor. This is not a time when you can count on balanced, slow research. That will be something historians will hopefully eventually do, but meanwhile people have act on what they have. Because there is no such thing as „inaction”.

Re: What is really happening in Ukraine

#120

Post by egao1980 »

choonkeymoonkey wrote: post #85
egao1980 wrote: post #76

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ukrainian_National_Assembly_%E2... Nazis are all over the barricades. Ukrainian riot police is more than capable of doing European G8 style riot control but is ordered not to do so because of the huge pressure from EU and USA. Finally, imagine Ukrainian or Russian officials going into crowds of Occupy Wall Street or Paris protests urging to overthrow the government and giving their suppor…

Could you please explain, how you exactly base your argument on the link above? Please, show us your reasoning.

1) .. far-right party... 2) The party maintains a close relationship with the National Democratic Party of Germany which is considered to be a promoter of a neo-Nazi ideology by some. UNA-UNSO has been widely considered to have employed neo-Fascist and neo-Nazi methods and ideologies.[23][24][25] 3) And easy guess - concealed swastika as a logo
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