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What is really happening in Ukraine

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Re: What is really happening in Ukraine

#171

Post by pipy »

avasylev wrote: post #93
myth_drannon wrote: post #12

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Because the descendands of http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lviv_pogroms perpetrators will want an ethnically pure Ukraine. And East/South of Ukraine will not allow it. US state department is interested in the break up and pushing west ukr down the throat of EU(Germany) which really is not interested in that right now (EU is going down with PIIGS, but US needs even weaker EU with +50mil dirt poor Ukrainians with extremel…

This is ridiculous... Except of few crazy people no one wants ethnically pure Ukraine. I grew up in western Ukraine and I have never seen single person discriminated for being Russian. I don't know why would you post that wiki link, WW2 situation was complex, but 100 years passed and it has nothing to do with current situation.

That's what Ukrainian lefties write:

"One of the major forces at Euromaidan is the far-right xenophobic party ‘Svoboda’ (‘Freedom’). They are dominant among the volunteering guards of the protest camp and are the vanguard of the most radical street actions such as the occupation of the administrative buildings in the center of Kiev. Before 2004 ‘Svoboda’ was called Social-National Party of Ukraine and used Nazi ‘Wolfsangel’ symbol. The party leader Oleh Tiahnybok is still known for his anti-Semitic speech. Even after its re-branding, Svoboda is establishing cooperation with Neo-Nazi and neofascist European parties such as National Democratic Party of Germany and Forza nuova of Italy. Its rank-and-file militants are frequently involved in street violence and hate crimes against migrants and political opponents". [1]

[1] http://commons.com.ua/?p=16967

Re: What is really happening in Ukraine

#172

Post by darkbot »

euphemize wrote: post #94

I wish those underlined words were links to sources or any kind of data. I haven't been following very closely and although I'm not putting in doubt what's on the slides (people on here seem to be more or less corroborating the data), there are lots of claims I'd like to read up on. Maybe a slide at the end with more info?

Well, there are no links because a lot these claims can not be verified.

Re: What is really happening in Ukraine

#173

Post by Demiurge »

vitalique wrote: post #143
Demiurge wrote: post #87

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's a good point, but they would have, if they had lots of small unguarded municipal buildings. Not to be sarcastic, this is still just a few thousands of extremists being destructive. A Civil War is when you have armed forces on both sides, a big population willing to take arms. Most adult people want this to stop and get back to work.

> this is still just a few thousands of extremists being destructive... Most adult people want this to stop and get back to work. I'm not even going to ask you how exactly do you know this, because this is completely untrue. There are hundreds of thousands, if not millions, of Ukrainians who already actively expressed their support to current shift in Ukrainian political landscape and their distrust to corrupt politi…

I wonder if you are trolling, because your first claim a strawman argument based on conflation.

>There are hundreds of thousands, if not millions, of Ukrainians who already actively expressed their support to current shift in Ukrainian political landscape and their distrust to corrupt politicians currently in charge of the country, call it a war or a revolution

Yes, of course, millions support a shift in Ukrainian political landscape and distrust to corrupt politicians. But I DON'T call that civil war and revolution. That is a civil process. These are not the people picking up stones and attacking police and government buildings right now. Like you, yourself, say, these people want to be at work.

Re: What is really happening in Ukraine

#174

Post by wavefunction »

ynniv wrote: post #99
wavefunction wrote: post #82

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Only realistic if you don't actually live in the United States. These European projections on how the US could devolve are pretty funny though, and say more about European bias than anything else.

I'm not sure which part of tracking the physical location of dollar bills you think has a European bias, but if means that much to you the project was completed at Northwestern University. The professor only later moved to a university in Europe. Please use your gray matter a little more before dispatching the fingers.

>>gray matter a little more before dispatching the fingers

Yet you linked not to the original work but to a German site. I would also point out that assigning physical-proximity as a cultural marker due to the movement of currency is a terrible stand-in for actual cultural similarities. And cultural similarities are what we are concerned with here, if we're discussing the devolution of America based on cultural lines.

For instance, the map you provide has Colorado lumped in with Oklahoma, Kansas, and the rest of the Midwest. While these states are proximate physically, the culture between these states is completely different, which is why Colorado has legalized cannabis and OK has a monument on government property to the 10 Commandments. To lump Colorado in with the Midwest just shows how poor the methodology and modeling are.

How's that for some gray matter? Is it enough, or do I need more?

Re: What is really happening in Ukraine

#175

Post by anovikov »

gtrubetskoy wrote: post #150
dmytrish wrote: post #88

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yes, you're right that Ukrainian opposition is still a part of the corrupt system, but there's a hope that Klichko (who lived in Europe for a long time) is a fresh blood here. Also, current Yanukovych's and Party of Regions corruption is outrageous even for Ukraine. This is the true reason of the revolution. People fight with the state sincerely, I don't see much sane people who are sincerely supporting Yanukovych no…

Klichko doesn't strike me as an honest person, he's as corrupt as the next guy, but that's just MHO.

Correct, the people are not there to replace personalities, they are to destroy the whole political system making resurrection of successive corrupt governments impossible. So 'opposition leaders' are not really leaders of Maidan, people don't give much respect to them, it is more like Muslim Brothers who rode the protest wave in Egypt to come into power, not being protest leaders in the first place. Much like Lenin who didn't organize Russian Revolution either, only riding its wave into power. I hope this time will be different.

Re: What is really happening in Ukraine

#176

Post by gus_massa »

ynniv wrote: post #65
stargazer-3 wrote: post #15

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Why don't Americans split the USA into two parts, the red one and the blue one?

There are more realistic borders along which the United States might reorganize: http://rocs.hu-berlin.de/projects/borders

This map was discussed here: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=5566582 (70 points, 248 days ago, 41 comments). I’ll quote the second comment by julespitt: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=5566911

> Ahem... http://www.federalreserve.gov/otherfrb.htm .

> Cash is managed through the regional branches of the Federal Reserve, and while there are some boundaries on that map that don't line up, it mostly seems to be governed by these particular administrative regions.

> As a New Yorker from Connecticut, the gigantic barrier between New York and New England would have to be nearly completely explained by the Fed.

Re: What is really happening in Ukraine

#177

Post by crypt1d »

imdsm wrote: post #166
crypt1d wrote: post #125

Frankly, this "presentation" feels like a 13-year old made it for his homework assignment. Poor language skills, not many details and unreliable evidence. I got to the 10th slide and gave up. This is definitely not something I would use to form an opinion on the current situation in Ukraine.

> Poor language skills Or English is their second language? So Poor English language skills?

Yes, they are probably not native English speakers. But then again, this is a major topic so I would expect that anyone who presents it to a broad audience at least makes the effort to do it properly. The language used here is just one of many things that give the impression that the person who made it has no idea what he/she is talking about.

Re: What is really happening in Ukraine

#178

Post by DanielBMarkham »

tptacek wrote: post #165
D9u wrote: post #84

Earlier quoted context omitted.

How about drone strikes which target and kill a US citizen and his teenage son?

I shouldn't indulge these unproductive subthreads, but I have mild nerd autism and am easily trolled. It's my experience that people who bring up Anwar al-Awlaki and his son --- particularly when using the term "US citizen" in the same breath --- rarely know anything specific about what actually happened. To start with, al-Awlaki and his son Abdulrahman weren't killed together, but at separate times. Abdulrahman was…

"I have mild nerd autism and am easily trolled"

Dude. If you ever get a firm diagnosis or find a support group please let some of us others know. It's like an epidemic.

Re: What is really happening in Ukraine

#179

Post by dmytrish »

myth_drannon wrote: post #151
dmytrish wrote: post #72

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is not correct. I don't know any influential Ukrainian nationalists who want ethnic purity to rule them all. Even Stepan Bandera welcomed Russians and Jews (!) who aren't enemies of Ukrainian state. Please stop this crazy Nazi bias and fear mongering. Yes, there were some parts of nationalist movements during WWII who tried to use Nazi force to establish Independent Ukraine, but this union was situational, tense…

From the videos I saw and from what I tried to read on the subject, large portion of the black clad youth on the square belongs to ultra right "Svoboda" party ( http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Svoboda_(political_party)#Ideol... ) and others . These are not your regular tired of corruption ukrainians but highly trained defacto militia. I just constantly compare it with Egypt's revolution and the people on the street look…

Svoboda had to give up much of its "radical" appeal to gain real popularity. Now its target audience is not marginal skinheads and radical nationalists, Svoboda has attracted a lot, a lot of people (10% of votes in Ukraine in 2012) who don't want to vote for the old corrupted opposition (Tymoshenko's "Batkivshchyna", Socialist Party of Ukraine, Green Movement, etc) and don't trust their hollow "patriotism". Yes, you can find old videos where Tyagnybok says all kind of far right things, but he's too much of a politic, he says what gains popularity in his target audience and he's a hostage of the strongly patriotic crowd now. Far right radicals are now out of Svoboda making Right Sector, which is partly responsible for Hrushevskogo actions.

> it looks extremely organized and professional - you haven't seen the first days of Maidan when it was chaotic and crystallizing before our eyes. I'd ascribe its amusing (but not supernatural) self-organization to powerful social networking and Orange Revolution experience.

Re: What is really happening in Ukraine

#180

Post by ash »

tptacek wrote: post #165
D9u wrote: post #84

Earlier quoted context omitted.

How about drone strikes which target and kill a US citizen and his teenage son?

I shouldn't indulge these unproductive subthreads, but I have mild nerd autism and am easily trolled. It's my experience that people who bring up Anwar al-Awlaki and his son --- particularly when using the term "US citizen" in the same breath --- rarely know anything specific about what actually happened. To start with, al-Awlaki and his son Abdulrahman weren't killed together, but at separate times. Abdulrahman was…

What about (4) trial in absentia? Is it possible under US laws?
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