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Girls Who Code

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Re: Girls Who Code

#311
post #146

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> A women cannot be driven out of coding by anyone other than herself. What a disgustingly ignorant thing to say. The sheer obliviousness of your privilege in this regard is staggering. It's ridiculous to expect someone to put up with harassment and vitriol and, when they finally give up and leave — which is completely normal and something any normal person, including yourself , would do — say that it was all on them…

You're conflating coding with the culture behind it. And even the culture isn't uniform, it's divided into many different subcultures. For all intents and purposes, there's nothing stopping a woman from learning how to program, contribute to open source and engage in community. A lot of people, male and female alike, operate under a pseudonym. Unless you're a celebrity, it's generally smarter for plenty of reasons, i…

Have you heard of Kathy Sierra?

Re: Girls Who Code

#312
post #282
post #280

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> several of her circle started Gittip accounts and they are cleaning house 459usd/week*52weeks/year = 23k/year - taxes = ~10k They will be rich soon.

I take your point, but if you earn $23k/year you aren't paying over 50% in tax. Particularly post eitc.

He's quoting Coda Hale without doing the math himself. It's fairly trivial to deduce who was sent here from the link that went around on Twitter. I see at least six people that saw the link on Twitter, giggled about it, then decided to show up on HN to make me feel bad. Because me calling it a group is totally wrong when they brigade a thread, right?

https://twitter.com/coda/status/417500281291550721

Regardless, my point was those Gittip accounts do well versus other Gittip accounts, which by and large represent people who contribute a lot of free software to the community.

Re: Girls Who Code

#313
post #64

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"Party line" is an interesting choice of words. There's definitely some unhealthy groupthink going on that's gaining in power. It's never been easier to have something said taken out of context and have your reputation dragged through the mud by people who are professional social justice warriors and not much else (I doubt Nitasha Tiku could program "hello world") Maybe it's due to the rise of twitter and the ease of…

Shanley Kane and her circle and sympathizers are spearheading this. Many of them show up in every HN thread about charged topics. I fully expect defense of them to show up in reply. It is part of my core being to be respectful to everyone, to listen to all sides, to feel empathy; however, when I am presented with a popular group in my industry that does none of those things, I am not sure how to react. What's depress…

> Communist hunters? Because I could have sworn we were smart folks trying to make the world a better place.

No, more like misogynist-racist-capitalist hunters. We HN types are trying to profit. At best grabbing so much money with uninspiring "tech" that some will assume their rightful place as benevolent plutocrats playing SimEarth.

> Shanley never misses a chance to go after Sarah Lacy

Anyone can see for themselves that Sarah Lacy is happy to dish out more than she gets, even using a gender slur against women just trying to talk (scroll down to the video): (http://www.lemondrop.com/2010/09/28/techcrunch-women-in-tech...)

> That's the modus operandae of these people: all it takes is one mistake

And evidence accumulated over time. And HN posters like you making wild accusations without one single cite to back up your claims... which turn out flimsy when you actually research it.

> It's not my fault I'm a white male

But it's your fault that you act this way. When someone mentions how Shanley gets threats of murder, you downplay. Your hurt feelings are far more important to you. At least you "get that anonymous death threats are an issue". (https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=6983085)

Like the kind that attacked Kathy Sierra and her children. Because she dared speak her mind. (http://www.theverge.com/2013/9/12/4693710/the-end-of-kindnes...)

Yeah, people like you make the world a better place.

Re: Girls Who Code

#314
post #42

One fascinating aspect of this is how bad the post 1990 startup culture has been for women. There was something about those big, boring corporations of the 1970s and 1980s that actually gave female hackers more acceptance than what startups have offered. You can see female interest in programming change in the charts on these pages: http://blogs.computerworld.com/it-careers/21993/women-comput... Note that those graph…

FWIW, the startup I was at seemed to have a soft affirmative action for females. They would reject males that didn't do much outside of college work, but would be willing to consider females with the same resume because "it would be nice to have more female coders". Culture fit was about a modicum of friendliness. You could get rejected for culture fit by, say, looking away from your interviewer and mumbling to yours…

> The company was still 90% men in engineering, because that's what your talent pipeline looks like.

Same here. I think we've hired all the women who have applied for Dev jobs as we expanded though not because of any positive discrimination (as far as I know, though hiring/firing is out of my remit). All two of them.

I get the impression that women are put off a career in the sort of technical role we need (or, to look at it the other way around, are drawn to other things) fairly early in their education. Those that stick with it are determined so tend to end up making the effort and being damn good, but the rest end up thinking it isn't for them for more so than boys in a similar position. A lot of that is going to be cultural (the "boys toys" attitude mainly) but I see this falling away as personal technology has become much more ubiquitous in the last decade or so with everyone having/wanting flashy phones, tablets, and other techie toys. The proportion of my younger family members' female friends who are specifically/actively interested in a technical profession seems much higher than was the case when I was that sort of age about 18 years ago (though game designer and game tester are the main dreams there, I'm not sure how to tell them about the disparity between their expectations and the level of stress people are under in that part of the industry!).

> I'm sure they were secret sexists. Valleywag would write a scathing article about them.

I think we are pretty much not sexist, or anything-else-ist for that matter, but in a way that might be a problem for some. I don't know if this holds industry wide, but our sense of humour can be quite non-PC though it is applied fairly: all stereotypes (gender, age, country, size, religion, diet, hair, ...) are fair game for a joke and we don't tend to reign it in for any particular group or individual (though we aren't completely heartless in that regard). No harm is meant and no-one has thus far taken offence but I imagine there are some sensitive souls out there who would find it makes for an environment uncomfortable to work in (so one of these days it might cause problems if someone goes too far and someone does take significant offence, I can certainly imagine circumstances where that might happen).

Re: Girls Who Code

#315

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Shanley Kane and her circle and sympathizers are spearheading this. Many of them show up in every HN thread about charged topics. I fully expect defense of them to show up in reply. It is part of my core being to be respectful to everyone, to listen to all sides, to feel empathy; however, when I am presented with a popular group in my industry that does none of those things, I am not sure how to react. What's depress…

> Communist hunters? Because I could have sworn we were smart folks trying to make the world a better place. No, more like misogynist-racist-capitalist hunters. We HN types are trying to profit. At best grabbing so much money with uninspiring "tech" that some will assume their rightful place as benevolent plutocrats playing SimEarth. > Shanley never misses a chance to go after Sarah Lacy Anyone can see for themselves…

> But it's your fault that you act this way.

And which way is that? I just shared an opinion. Am I not supposed to have opinions? Are there correct opinions?

> When someone mentions how Shanley gets threats of murder, you downplay.

Careful with that "you" there, pal. I have never done, and would never, ever do this. Jesse Noller will remember when I e-mailed him to offer him support when he was receiving death threats over the PyCon affair. Being stalked and threatened by the Internet is no laughing matter and I wouldn't wish such a thing on anyone. In 2005-2006, a younger me was fairly involved in 4chan (your guess is as good as mine) and I know firsthand the depths of anonymity. I'd hold the same opinion of someone and react to that person the same way if they threatened to kill either Shanley Kane, myself, or any member of my family.

So, you had a pretty good point going there and then did exactly what you are accusing me of doing, painting a caricature of me which is easy for you to whack on.

Re: Girls Who Code

#316

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Shanley Kane and her circle and sympathizers are spearheading this. Many of them show up in every HN thread about charged topics. I fully expect defense of them to show up in reply. It is part of my core being to be respectful to everyone, to listen to all sides, to feel empathy; however, when I am presented with a popular group in my industry that does none of those things, I am not sure how to react. What's depress…

Watching you clutch your pearls is fucking hilarious, so I've set up a weekly donation of a fair chunk of change to Shanley's Gittip account. Keep up the good work.

Yes, it's so great for women in open source that the only 2 women in the Gittip top 12 are there because they whine and bitch a lot, rather than produce something useful. Keep white knighting.

Both are known for pulling facts out of their ass that are either unsupported or contradicted by evidence.

Re: Girls Who Code

#317

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Shanley Kane and her circle and sympathizers are spearheading this. Many of them show up in every HN thread about charged topics. I fully expect defense of them to show up in reply. It is part of my core being to be respectful to everyone, to listen to all sides, to feel empathy; however, when I am presented with a popular group in my industry that does none of those things, I am not sure how to react. What's depress…

> Communist hunters? Because I could have sworn we were smart folks trying to make the world a better place. No, more like misogynist-racist-capitalist hunters. We HN types are trying to profit. At best grabbing so much money with uninspiring "tech" that some will assume their rightful place as benevolent plutocrats playing SimEarth. > Shanley never misses a chance to go after Sarah Lacy Anyone can see for themselves…

And when guys in tech mention to Shanley that they too have pet trolls who send them nasty things, she ignores them.

Re: Girls Who Code

#318

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Shanley Kane and her circle and sympathizers are spearheading this. Many of them show up in every HN thread about charged topics. I fully expect defense of them to show up in reply. It is part of my core being to be respectful to everyone, to listen to all sides, to feel empathy; however, when I am presented with a popular group in my industry that does none of those things, I am not sure how to react. What's depress…

Watching you clutch your pearls is fucking hilarious, so I've set up a weekly donation of a fair chunk of change to Shanley's Gittip account. Keep up the good work.

I would just like to point out, per pg's observations, that this is an eloquent way of saying "ur a fag".

Re: Girls Who Code

#319

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I wonder if it is just something about startups - higher risk, lower guaranteed reward, worse training programs, higher pressure. This is explained equally well by inexperienced managers hiring people similar to themselves culturally, racially, and socioeconomically. Likewise, if I were a woman, I wouldn't want to work on a team with five dudes oblivious to their dude-dom.

Who in their right mind would want to work on a team of highly-intelligent, socially-challenged, culturally-homogeneous young men whose experience to date is primarily steeped in the casual misogyny, homophobia, and racism of MMORPG chat-channels; dorm-room bike-shedding; and adolescent dude-bro jokes?

If they're good coders, sure. I can ignore work-unrelated stupidity, but if I have to work with someone incompetent at their job that becomes very unpleasant very quickly.

Re: Girls Who Code

#320
post #258

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I want to help other groups in this industry; however, there is no speaking to them. I think I partially know how it feels to be gay, because I didn't choose my situation yet there is an extremely vocal group that wants me to believe I am doing something wrong. I humbly submit that you have no idea how it feels to be gay, and that the best way to find out is to actually talk to us. aphyr@aphyr.com.

> I humbly submit that you have no idea how it feels to be gay It was a bad example, which is why I included partially, and I apologize for my poor thought there. I was only identifying with having no choice in a situation and then having vocal groups attempt to vilify that situation. I am certainly not claiming that I experience any hardship that gay folks do beyond that one. Please don't assume I'm in a bubble, eit…

I'm gay and I feel exactly the same way about this whole farce. The idea that no straight person can truly sympathize is bullshit... and when it comes from those who complain about a lack of empathy in others, I just scratch my head.

The irony is of course, they are themselves the most privileged around: white, educated tech employees in Silicon Valley.

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