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Girls Who Code

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Re: Girls Who Code

#11
One fascinating aspect of this is how bad the post 1990 startup culture has been for women. There was something about those big, boring corporations of the 1970s and 1980s that actually gave female hackers more acceptance than what startups have offered.

You can see female interest in programming change in the charts on these pages:

http://blogs.computerworld.com/it-careers/21993/women-comput...

Note that those graphs show raw numbers, not a percentage of the population -- if you adjust for the growing population, female graduation rates in computer science peak in the 1980s. As it says in the text:

"As a share of all CS bachelor's degrees granted that year, females had slipped almost 10 points, from 37% in 1984/1985 to 27% in 2003."

A family anecdote: my mom was working on her Phd in urban planning back in the 1970s and her advisor said to her "You know, in the future, many of these issues of traffic and resource allocation will be resolved through computer simulations, so you should learn to program." My mom thought that was a good idea so she took some classes and learned basic programming. She does not recall feeling like an outsider in those classes: the computer field was still new and felt wide open.

Nowadays a lot of startups talk about the need for "culture fit". This tends to limit the diversity of the gender and race and class of who is hired. For contrast, consider people like Evelyn Boyd Granville, and her acceptance at IBM.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Evelyn_Boyd_Granville

Here on Hacker News we also discussed the story that Raganwald posted, about another black woman at IBM, though that article is now offline:

http://raganwald.posterous.com/a-womans-story

If IBM applied a filter of "culture fit" then these women would not have been hired. But IBM, and many of the big corporations in the USA, followed very liberal policies that promoted diversity in the work place.

There were some startups from the 1950s and 1960s that broke new ground in terms of diversity. Ray Kroc built up a small startup called McDonalds and in a quiet way he made feminist history in his treatment of June Martino. She was initially hired as the bookkeeper, but she was later entrusted with vast responsibilities and finally, in 1965, when McDonalds went public, she was given shares in the company, exactly like any other cofounder of a startup. This was apparently the first time in history that a woman was treated as a real cofounder and given stock.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/June_Martino

If you look at the numbers, it seems clear that the emergence of the tech-based startup scene, in the 1990s, changed things for women. The startups have not emphasized hiring diversity. The startups tend to emphasize culture fit, and they were doing so even before that phrase came into existence. Why this should be, I am not sure. There have been startups in the past that have emphasized diversity in hiring, so I am not clear why the current generation of startups cannot do so. But what is clear is that it is not a priority for them. The big and boring corporations of the past did a better job of creating spaces for women in tech.

Edit to add: to avoid being overly innocent, we should note how much the talk of "culture" is sometimes a smokescreen to hide power dynamics. Shanley Kane said "In Silicon Valley, and the tech industry in general, a lot of people were giving these talks about what their culture was and it was really superficial and focused on the privileged aspects of the company like free food and massages." Here on Hacker News we have already discussed the post "Google's 'free food' is not free" but it is worth remembering how much the talk about "culture" is just a negotiating tactic.

http://rachelbythebay.com/w/2012/01/21/notfree/

Re: Girls Who Code

#12
post #6

It sounds like Harvey Mudd's program improves female enrollment but it's just seems like a good idea in general The quick program for Harvey Mudd seems to be 1) Make the problems more practical in application (ie controlling a robot, modelling a disease) 2) Giving students choices in what problems they are interested in 3) Segmenting students according to skill set, thus putting people who have been programming in an…

[deleted]

Re: Girls Who Code

#13

I am a man. These initiatives will simply not work. Imagine "Men Nurse." Many women SIMPLY do not code for the same reason many men do not code. Most of us were not exposed to the science as kids, hence step 1 is to make Programming mandatory. Note I say programming and not C.S.. I am an amateur programmer and I can say wit confidence that this is as fundamental as basic arithmetic. Full stop. I frankly wish they shu…

There are tons of male nurses. 'iamelgringo, a former top contributor here, is an ER nurse.

Back of the envelope:

There are ~24,000,000 people aged 18-24 in the US. Assume half are female: there are ~12,000,000 "girls who might code" in the US. Of these, 12.6% are African American. There are ~1,440,00 "black girls who might code" in the US.

There are ~400,000 people who live in Tulsa.

There have probably been several "Tulsa Codes!" events in the past couple years, but either way just stipulate that it could happen. A "Tulsa Codes!" event addresses just 400,000 people. For logistical and practical reasons, that event locks out an overwhelmingly huge number of potential beneficiaries.

But nobody has a problem with "Tulsa Codes!". Threads aren't full of people ranting about "third wave feminism" when they do.

Re: Girls Who Code

#14

I am a man. These initiatives will simply not work. Imagine "Men Nurse." Many women SIMPLY do not code for the same reason many men do not code. Most of us were not exposed to the science as kids, hence step 1 is to make Programming mandatory. Note I say programming and not C.S.. I am an amateur programmer and I can say wit confidence that this is as fundamental as basic arithmetic. Full stop. I frankly wish they shu…

Your intentions are good, but in practical terms, you are wrong.

The creation of things like "Girls Who Code" is not a statement that this is the way things should be but a statement that this is the way things have to be -- for now. Just about everyone will say -- and do so sincerely -- that they are totally for more females to get into programming, if those females want to be involved.

But the problem isn't the individual. It's the institution. The challenges that the most motivated women have faced when entering an ostensibly gender-agnostic situation have been well-documented and talked about...So creating an environment like "Girls Who Code" is a pro-active force, rather than just "let the pieces fall where they may" approach, because people who have tried that have failed.

To put it in a non-gendered context, saying that "women who code should just join the field and work their hardest" is like saying, "people who really need vacation time should join a company with 'no vacation policy'" and take a vacation whenever they want. After all, if the company says it has no policy against taking vacation, and everyone would like to take vacation when they feel like it...what's to stop people from taking the vacation days they need?

And yet, somehow, that doesn't happen, in practice.

Re: Girls Who Code

#15
post #10

> There is a lot of systemic bias in the system against young women taking this kind of direction with their studies and their career. I understand there is cultural bias, but systemic? There are more women attending and graduating college than men, they're more economically prosperous in their early twenties as well.[1] [1] http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2011/nov/27/young-w...

Yes, because they are very well represented in the traditional professions: law, accounting, and medicine.

They are not well represented in computer software. That's what we're talking about.

Go to a crypto conference sometime. If, like me, you hail from computer software and not from academic cryptography and mathematics, you will probably be surprised at how much better women are represented there than in software. The technology of cryptography is more demanding than computer software, but very similar in spirit.

What is it about the field of computer software development that keeps so many women out?

I suspect some of it has to do with the way we take observations about what successful developers have looked like in the past --- young white dudes --- and create fast paths for those people. People who "fit the mold" have an easier time making progress in our field. People who don't fit the mold have to contend with more interrogation, more doubt, and slower progress. It's true of other minorities (relative to software development demographics) as well, particularly older people.

Re: Girls Who Code

#16
post #10

> There is a lot of systemic bias in the system against young women taking this kind of direction with their studies and their career. I understand there is cultural bias, but systemic? There are more women attending and graduating college than men, they're more economically prosperous in their early twenties as well.[1] [1] http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2011/nov/27/young-w...

I don't think the line between cultural and systemic bias (as used in the article's context) is as clear cut as you interpret it as.

They heavily influence each other at the least and depending on your definition either could even be considered a superset of the other.

Re: Girls Who Code

#17
I have to thank Valleywag for doing me the favor of helping me prune people who lack reading comprehension from twitter. I'm still kind of amazed how so many people un-ironically cited valleywag in their tweets.

It's pretty obvious what pg was saying in this particular "smoking gun" quote: that figuring out a way to get more girls interested in programming at 13 is an incredibly important and hard problem. The willingness for people to quickly swallow and parrot a 1-dimensional narrative of "Paul Graham, sexist pig" based upon a few quotes taken out of context in a highly edited, 3rd hand rage-blog by fucking Vallywag is the type of behavior I expect from political spinmeister hacks trotted out on the 24 hour news channels, not from smart people who I respect.

Re: Girls Who Code

#18
Apparently the definition of sexism is now just not telling women what they want to hear. The vast majority of the criticism of pg's answer that I saw wasn't even claiming that he was wrong, but just calling him sexist because his answer wasn't masturbatory enough. C.f. https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=1840377

Re: Girls Who Code

#19
post #7

One of that impresses me, and kind of amuses me, is how PG will talk these issues out, even though the danger of being misquoted or misinterpreted is much higher than the chances of being appreciated, especially for someone in his position. The phrase "God knows what you would do to get 13 year old girls interested in computers?" , as a standalone statement, is ripe for ripping apart. But I think in its context, it o…

Once again: after establishing bona fides by saying "fuck Vallywag and everything they stand for", I feel like I need to say that Graham wasn't hugely distorted.

He was asked whether YC discriminates against women. The obvious subtext of that question is that there's a large imbalance between men & women among YC founders. He could have said "no, we don't discriminate; I don't know why the imbalance among YC founders exist or exactly how to correct it, but here are some reasons I don't think our process is what creates it". He does not say that.

Instead, he composes a small essay about the roots of gender imbalance in the industry off the top of his head, and that impromptu essay manages to reinforce a lot of young- white- male privilege. "If women were going to be good coders", he seems to a reasonable reader to be saying, "they would have found coding on their own". But that's not true: it conflates affinity and aptitude with opportunity and support. It also conflates "living and breathing technology" with "ability to masterfully execute a role"; the correlation between living the life and ability to execute is dubious at best.

It does not help that Paul Graham has said other things in the past that also reinforce privilege.

"Privilege" is a dirty word on HN (I guess it makes me some kind of "nth wave feminist" to use it), but it isn't an indictment. Nobody is saying privilege needs to be rooted out and eliminated. How could you ever do that, anyways? The point is not to brand young white dudes with the word, but simply to recognize that it exists, and be wary about attitudes that reinforce it and allow it to feed on itself. That's the concern I have with the interview The Information published.

Re: Girls Who Code

#20
post #13

I am a man. These initiatives will simply not work. Imagine "Men Nurse." Many women SIMPLY do not code for the same reason many men do not code. Most of us were not exposed to the science as kids, hence step 1 is to make Programming mandatory. Note I say programming and not C.S.. I am an amateur programmer and I can say wit confidence that this is as fundamental as basic arithmetic. Full stop. I frankly wish they shu…

There are tons of male nurses. 'iamelgringo, a former top contributor here, is an ER nurse. Back of the envelope: There are ~24,000,000 people aged 18-24 in the US. Assume half are female: there are ~12,000,000 "girls who might code" in the US. Of these, 12.6% are African American. There are ~1,440,00 "black girls who might code" in the US. There are ~400,000 people who live in Tulsa. There have probably been several…

9.6% of all RNs are male [0]

Why is there not a male nurse initiative? Or male elementary teacher initiative[1]?

I have to admit, I am strongly against things like "Girls who code". If there truly are issues in our culture that prevent girls from looking into coding, then absolutely let's get rid of those as best we can. But a girl can look into and explore coding just as easily as a boy can. There's really nothing stopping them. I have a few male nurse friends too. Nothing stopped them either, they simply found nursing interesting and pursued it. There might simply be fewer female coders because they tend to not be interested in this profession, same as male nurses.

[0] -- http://www.minoritynurse.com/minority-nursing-statistics [1] -- http://www.menteach.org/resources/data_about_men_teachers

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