Google sponsors over $150k of grants for female programmers • Hacker News Board

Re: Google sponsors over $150k of grants for female programmers

#91

Post by ceol » Tue, Dec 10, 2013, 6:55 PM UTC

belorn wrote: post #82

ceol wrote: post #69

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Google's grant doesn't give women a whole bunch of money solely on the basis of being a woman. They have to first qualify for Hacker School, and then they have to qualify for financial aid. Once they do all that, they get some money to help cover expenses while attending the school. > or African American male teachers. So then, what's the problem? They're still men, which is apparently the defining factor. That comme…

You really aren't informed on this topic are you? Have you not seen the discussion about transsexuals and grants given to a specific gender. Sometimes, gender has nothing to do with genitalia, and sometimes it do. It depend, and has been discussed several times in the past. > little bit racist You seems a bit out of your depth here. What are you talking about? Do you have a problem that grants to students are given o…

> Sometimes, gender has nothing to do with genitalia, and sometimes it do.

No, that's not how it works. Again: Read up before commenting on a topic you're not familiar with. Having a penis does not guarantee a person is a man, and having a vagina does not guarantee a person is a woman. This is pretty basic stuff to understand. I'm not sure why you're having trouble.

> Do you have a problem that grants to students are given on the specifics of someone being of the racial and ethnic minority called African American, and is male?

No. Your comment implied you had the problem, as though because they give it to black men, it somehow detracts from the fact they're giving it to men — like it doesn't count.

Re: Google sponsors over $150k of grants for female programmers

#92

Post by ceol » Tue, Dec 10, 2013, 7:01 PM UTC

belorn wrote: post #72

ceol wrote: post #62

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Outreach is used fill in the gap in the services provided by mainstream means Check. > to reach groups who otherwise would not be aware of existing services (In this case, education). Check. It does both things. It fills the gap of an affordable, welcoming resource for women who have an interest in programming, and it reaches women who would otherwise not be aware of a resource that is friendly toward them. You jus…

A appeal to authority fallacy will get you nowhere. I will counter your appeal to Google with my appeal to Mozilla. Mozilla believes in a mentor program and non-exclusive aid, which is exactly the right way to approach imbalance. It also helps that it has been proven to work in eliminating gender bias. If you want sources, do you own research. like I said, Sweden education system tried and failed and that fact is not…

> It also helps that it has been proven to work in eliminating gender bias.

Another unsubstantiated claim. It's like you don't understand how claims work. Saying whatever you believe as though it's fact doesn't make it so.

> like I said, Sweden education system tried and failed and that fact is not hard to find for yourself.

First: It's not my job to prove your argument for you. Second: According to you, Sweden apparently tried gender-exclusive classes. Hacker School isn't excluding men from its program. It's just providing a way for women to pay for expenses. Those are two very different things.

> Others has published articles such as

That article actually proves you wrong...

>> These programs have brought or accompanied significant gains for women and minorities. In the past 25 years, black participation in the work force has increased 50 percent and the percentage of blacks holding managerial positions has jumped fivefold. In 1970, women comprised only 5 percent of lawyers compared to 20 percent today. Twenty-five years ago, the student population at University of California, Berkeley, was 80 percent white compared to 45 percent today.

So, they are beneficial, and they do work.

Re: Google sponsors over $150k of grants for female programmers

#93

Post by ceol » Tue, Dec 10, 2013, 7:04 PM UTC

tomp wrote: post #76

ceol wrote: post #67

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> nothing is stopping women from becoming top-notch hackers. A lot is. Contrary to your comment, programmers have to interact with other people in order to participate in the industry, whether they're in college learning or have just taught themselves and are looking for a job. I've had quite a few female friends tell me about high school teachers and college professors who told them, straight to their faces, that pr…

> high school teachers and college professors who told them, straight to their faces, that programming was "for men" and they don't belong. There are still plenty of male employers who pass over perfectly qualified candidates just because they're women; plenty of male classmates who harass women with "get back in the kitchen" jokes. And what is this kind of announcements/programs doing to change that?

Like icebraining said, the biggest way to influence the industry is to get more women into it. The more women, the weaker the current we must row against.

Change is much more likely to happen if there is a substantial population of women participating in the industry.

Re: Google sponsors over $150k of grants for female programmers

#94

Post by ceol » Tue, Dec 10, 2013, 7:11 PM UTC

nailer wrote: post #79

ceol wrote: post #64

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> One may wish there to be more male teachers, but that does not mean one considers the lack of male teachers a problem with the industry. So then... your source? Because I'm sure if you talked to any random teacher, they would tell you that the lack of men in teaching is a problem with the industry. You're still not providing anything to back up your claims. > after evaluating each individual on the basis of their m…

> > One may wish there to be more male teachers, but that does not mean one considers the lack of male teachers a problem with the industry. > So then... your source? This is a logical argument. You claimed you spoke to teachers and found something that doesn't correspond to my assertion to be true. I pointed out that it may be true, but it doesn't correspond to my assertion. If you are now asserting that teachers, i…

> If you are now asserting that teachers, in addition to wanting more men in the industry, also think that the lack of men is a problem with their industry, then it's up to you to prove your assertion. And not with 'if you talked to any random teacher'.

Actually, no. You made the first assertion that teachers don't have a problem with the lack of men. I'm countering with the opposite. There is no assumed default in this case, so it's up to either of us to prove our argument. Here is my proof: http://www.menteach.org/ There are outreach programs to get more men into teaching, which means teachers do think it's a problem.

> I'm not going to bother spending time arguing with a child.

I can only assume the name-calling is due to your frustration with being proved wrong. You should spend some time learning how to better handle yourself.

Re: Google sponsors over $150k of grants for female programmers

#95

Post by ceol » Tue, Dec 10, 2013, 7:18 PM UTC

belorn wrote: post #89

ceol wrote: post #56

Earlier quoted context omitted.

They aren't just letting any and all women in while telling the droves of men to shove it. They're saying that if you are a woman who already qualifies for Hacker School who cannot pay for expenses while attending , then they will give you some money to help out. They aren't some bouncer at a club pulling the velvet rope back for everyone who checks the "I am a woman" box on the application.

Why would that matter? Surely, only those with expenses for attending hacker school can ask for a grant that repays expenses for attending hacker school. Those with expenses for attending a chocolate factory visit can not ask for this grant. That should not be considered when judging who should be granted money regarding expenses for attending hacker school. The chocolate factory has nothing to do with this grant.

> Surely, only those with expenses for attending hacker school can ask for a grant that repays expenses for attending hacker school.

They aren't repaying. They're paying. The grant is given so that they don't have to pay.

Do you understand exactly what the grant is doing? It's giving money to women who already qualify for the school but can't afford the expenses of living in NYC during their time there. This has nothing to do with chocolate factories or whatever you're talking about.

Re: Google sponsors over $150k of grants for female programmers

#96

Post by gcb0 » Tue, Dec 10, 2013, 7:24 PM UTC

belorn wrote: post #35

lclarkmichalek wrote: post #29

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Given that this is for an institution called `Hacker School`, and I have a feeling that your stats aren't P(x | studying CS), I don't really see how this is particularly relevant. The grant isn't give as part of a `help women in financial need` project, it's given as part of a `help increase the proportion of people in the tech industry who are women`.

If you want to increase the proportion of people in the tech industry who are women, do out reach, eliminate glass ceilings in management, and sponsor research into industry causes of gender bias. Doing gender discriminations to "counter" gender discriminations is neither a good or effective way. It's lazy, and only causes more harm.

This is spot on!

What they are doing, ironically, is the least engineering thing to do. Fixing one of the side effects, which may cause worse side effects, instead of analyzing and fixing the problem.

Re: Google sponsors over $150k of grants for female programmers

#97

Post by belorn » Tue, Dec 10, 2013, 7:35 PM UTC

ceol wrote: post #91

belorn wrote: post #82

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You really aren't informed on this topic are you? Have you not seen the discussion about transsexuals and grants given to a specific gender. Sometimes, gender has nothing to do with genitalia, and sometimes it do. It depend, and has been discussed several times in the past. > little bit racist You seems a bit out of your depth here. What are you talking about? Do you have a problem that grants to students are given o…

> Sometimes, gender has nothing to do with genitalia, and sometimes it do. No, that's not how it works. Again: Read up before commenting on a topic you're not familiar with. Having a penis does not guarantee a person is a man, and having a vagina does not guarantee a person is a woman. This is pretty basic stuff to understand. I'm not sure why you're having trouble. > Do you have a problem that grants to students are…

You seem very ignorant of all the troubles transsexual persons sometimes get. If everyone agreed that gender != genitalia, yes, it would be a nice world. Sadly, it isn't like that everyone. Being ignorant of this problem isn't good, and i don't know why you are having trouble to understand this.

> Do you have a problem that grants to students are given on the specifics of someone being of the racial and ethnic minority called African American, and is male? > No

Strange, your comment seems to strongly implied you had such problem.

> as though because they give it to black men, it somehow detracts from the fact they're giving it to men — like it doesn't count.

No.

Re: Google sponsors over $150k of grants for female programmers

#98

Post by belorn » Tue, Dec 10, 2013, 7:58 PM UTC

ceol wrote: post #92

belorn wrote: post #72

Earlier quoted context omitted.

A appeal to authority fallacy will get you nowhere. I will counter your appeal to Google with my appeal to Mozilla. Mozilla believes in a mentor program and non-exclusive aid, which is exactly the right way to approach imbalance. It also helps that it has been proven to work in eliminating gender bias. If you want sources, do you own research. like I said, Sweden education system tried and failed and that fact is not…

> It also helps that it has been proven to work in eliminating gender bias. Another unsubstantiated claim. It's like you don't understand how claims work. Saying whatever you believe as though it's fact doesn't make it so. > like I said, Sweden education system tried and failed and that fact is not hard to find for yourself. First: It's not my job to prove your argument for you. Second: According to you, Sweden appar…

> It also helps that it has been proven to work in eliminating gender bias. > Another unsubstantiated claim.

Sorry, I thought you could your own searches. If you can't be bothered to do your own research, and can provide any sources of your own, why should anyone care what you got to say?

any, for the incurrable lazy: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z6NvCH7A8Vs and https://wiki.gnome.org/GnomeLove/Mentors

> Sweden apparently tried gender-exclusive classes

No, they did not. They added a simple rule that said: If a person enrolling in a class would become a minority in that class, then that person deserve some preferential treatment. The end resulted was that over 80% of the time this rule triggered, it was a white male, trying to enter a white female dominated class room.

> That article actually proves you wrong...

Apprently a lack of reading skills...

The article ends on:

>> Few people question the need to eliminate racial and sexist barriers that exclude minorities' and women from full participation in society. Preferential treatment programs may be one means toward this goal. But these programs also raise ethical issues that direct us to consider their potential benefits and harms, the justice of compensating groups for past harms and present disadvantages, and the fairest way to distribute the burdens of compensation.

And it talks about what those temporary measures where designed for:

>> First instituted in the 1960s and 1970s by employers and educational institutions in response to pressures from civil rights groups, federal legislation, and court rulings, preferential treatment programs seek to rectify the effects of past and ongoing discrimination against women and racial minorities.

And last:

>> Nor is it clear that even those minorities and women qualifying for preferential treatment benefit from such special consideration. Recent studies reveal a high dropout rate among minority college students admitted under affirmative action programs. At U. C. Berkeley, for example, only 45 percent of black students admitted in 1984 had graduated by 1989 compared to 73 percent of Anglos. The high rate of failure that follows the award of employment and educational opportunities to minority individuals unprepared to meet the challenges of higher education reinforces feelings of inferiority among members of these groups.

they are not beneficial, and they do not work.

Re: Google sponsors over $150k of grants for female programmers

#99

Post by dyno12345 » Tue, Dec 10, 2013, 8:52 PM UTC

sanxiyn wrote: post #37

knowitall wrote: post #30

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Maybe you are right in this case. However, nightclubs need women because a major reason to go there is to hook up. What is the reason to bribe women into showing up at hacking competitions? Actual cynical me thinks "more sexy workplace" is part of the unspoken motivation for the "more women into programming" movement. But I don't think that is the official message they want to send out...

What's wrong with that? I'd prefer more gender-balanced workplace. My sister is a teacher, and she says female workers in female-dominated workplaces have pretty much same preference.

how would these women feel about paying men a little more to enter their fields?

Re: Google sponsors over $150k of grants for female programmers

#100

Post by enneff » Tue, Dec 10, 2013, 9:34 PM UTC

belorn wrote: post #33

enneff wrote: post #31

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm a man and I would judge a woman just as I judge a man: by their actions.

While a noble view, its is obviously not shared by Google. They would rather judge a woman on the basis that she is a woman.

The grants are not merit based, so Google is not judging these women at all. The grants are to help restore the gender imbalance in software engineering. You seem to be having trouble understanding this.