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Google sponsors over $150k of grants for female programmers

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Re: Google sponsors over $150k of grants for female programmers

#61

Post by tomp »

altero wrote: post #16
hingisundhorsa wrote: post #15

Earlier quoted context omitted.

As a “ programmer”, I've always been uncomfortable with race based or gender based or orientation based policies. Google would have been better off taking the time evaluating each participant and then making a judgement on whether that person would benefit from additional help. That would be better for everyone rather than blindly assuming every female needs assistance or every "insert ethnicity here" needs assistanc…

But they do need help. Diversity is nice, but someone still has to do the actual work.

Many people need help. They need help because they are poor, or uneducated, or don't know anybody, but not because they are black, gay or women.

Re: Google sponsors over $150k of grants for female programmers

#62

Post by ceol »

belorn wrote: post #57
ceol wrote: post #45

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What do you think this is if not outreach? Any sort of outreach will be targeted. I can only imagine you would be in those threads complaining about "gender discrimination" because Company X created women-focused programming classes or the like. There's plenty of research into "industry causes of gender bias." This is one of the solutions. You're basically claiming that because this doesn't completely solve the gende…

Are you defining preferential treatment as outreach? Thats not only a very odd definition, but also creates the idea that glass ceilings is some form of outreach for male leaders. The definition of "Outreach", is an method that are used to fill in the gap in the services provided by mainstream means, to the purpose of reaching groups who otherwise would not be aware of existing services (In this case, education). Thi…

> Outreach is used fill in the gap in the services provided by mainstream means

Check.

> to reach groups who otherwise would not be aware of existing services (In this case, education).

Check.

It does both things. It fills the gap of an affordable, welcoming resource for women who have an interest in programming, and it reaches women who would otherwise not be aware of a resource that is friendly toward them. You just don't like that it's reaching out to a specific group that you happen to not belong to.

> women-exclusive classes do not work, and are indeed counter-productive.

Hacker School isn't excluding men. It's merely saying they will help women with expenses while attending the school. It's not giving women an express lane through the application process.

> You discard what is a step backward, and only use what is a step forward. Small step backwards are still backward steps.

Do you have any source to prove this is a step backwards? Because one of the largest and most resourceful tech companies in the world happens to disagree with you, so you're going to need a little more to back yourself up than, "Nuh uh!"

And please don't throw around "scientific method" as though it applies here. You're not bringing in any new information. You're just stating your own opinion and then acting as though it's fact.

Re: Google sponsors over $150k of grants for female programmers

#63

Post by tomp »

leoedin wrote: post #54
xiaoma wrote: post #25

What about men who have financial need? This isn't an academic question. The tech industry is one of the very few left where large numbers of men from diverse backgrounds are doing well. For many who are struggling, it's the best shot they have. Men receive less financial aid for college and graduate with more debt... if they graduate. Women now outnumber men 3 to 2 in current graduating classes in the US. Far more m…

This is a good comment. It's easy to forget that the proportion of people "above the glass ceiling" is tiny, regardless of gender. Girls outperform boys consistently through school and, as you've said, admissions to university have a significant gender skew. With the decline of many of the more traditional blue collar male-dominated industries, our system is quietly failing a high proportion of boys. It's hard to dis…

> there's also a significant imbalance in socioeconomic background

and age, and (probably) also lifestyle.

Re: Google sponsors over $150k of grants for female programmers

#64

Post by ceol »

nailer wrote: post #58
ceol wrote: post #52

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> but female schoolteachers do not consider the lack of men to be a problem with their industry Source? Because I'm sure if you talked to any teacher, they'd tell you they would prefer a more balanced selection of primary school teachers. The least you could do is a simple Google search,[0] which would show there is a movement to get more men into teaching. > after looking at the individuals, more of them may belong…

>> but female schoolteachers do not consider the lack of men to be a problem with their industry > I'm sure if you talked to any teacher, they'd tell you they would prefer a more balanced selection of primary school teachers. That's a different matter. One may wish there to be more male teachers, but that does not mean one considers the lack of male teachers a problem with the industry. >> after looking at the indivi…

> One may wish there to be more male teachers, but that does not mean one considers the lack of male teachers a problem with the industry.

So then... your source? Because I'm sure if you talked to any random teacher, they would tell you that the lack of men in teaching is a problem with the industry. You're still not providing anything to back up your claims.

> after evaluating each individual on the basis of their merits, one may discover that the individuals who have been found to excel may belong to the same group.

So exactly what I thought. Which part of the brain makes women more inclined to teach grades K through 12? Which part makes men more likely to teach at the college level? Which part makes women not excel as much as men in programming?

> Male and female brains have massive differences in the amount of gray and white matter for one thing.

Your first link doesn't show that women are less likely to be programmers. It actually shows they would be more likely, as they apparently excel at intuitive thinking, multitasking, and remembering.

That doesn't touch on the fact that I said "think a certain way". I didn't say they are exactly the same. I said there has not been definitive proof that men are hardwired to be programmers/leaders/managers/etc and women are hardwired to be nurses/teachers/caretakers.

Re: Google sponsors over $150k of grants for female programmers

#66

Post by belorn »

ceol wrote: post #52
nailer wrote: post #40

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> We should consider this as a high-priority bug in our industry. Why? Primary education is overwhelmingly female, for example, but female schoolteachers do not consider the lack of men to be a problem with their industry which they should be ashamed of. One should always judge the individual, and no person should ever be stopped from doing anything on the basis of their race, gender, or anything else. However part o…

> but female schoolteachers do not consider the lack of men to be a problem with their industry Source? Because I'm sure if you talked to any teacher, they'd tell you they would prefer a more balanced selection of primary school teachers. The least you could do is a simple Google search,[0] which would show there is a movement to get more men into teaching. > after looking at the individuals, more of them may belong…

Checking for similar grants such as the one by google, I found (http://www.ehow.com/info_8641285_grants-male-teachers.html).

It was interesting that none of the grants are "if you are male, thats it. Here is a bunch of money". It is either for teacher that are willing to cater to students from low-income families, or African American male teachers.

I guess Google could add a condition to their grant, in which only female students willing to cater to , or alternative to people of + female status.

Is there any grants that gives men money just for the fact that they have male genitalia and are willing to enroll in education?

Re: Google sponsors over $150k of grants for female programmers

#67

Post by ceol »

tomp wrote: post #60
ceol wrote: post #41

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If I have ten apples, and you have five apples, giving us both five apples doesn't make us equal. Likewise, giving both men and women grants (which are readily available anyway for both genders) doesn't suddenly fix the imbalance of women. It requires a targeted solution. > I don't want to end up in a workforce where people are working because it was a good financial decision from yesteryear. Well then you're barking…

This comment would be OK if we were talking about the profession of lawyers, or doctors, or investment bankers, but programmers?! Programming is an ideal career for the introverted and "socially awkward". You don't need formal education, you don't need to talk to people, all you need is a computer and a book or internet connection, and most importantly, curiosity and desire to explore and learn about computers. You c…

> nothing is stopping women from becoming top-notch hackers.

A lot is. Contrary to your comment, programmers have to interact with other people in order to participate in the industry, whether they're in college learning or have just taught themselves and are looking for a job. I've had quite a few female friends tell me about high school teachers and college professors who told them, straight to their faces, that programming was "for men" and they don't belong. There are still plenty of male employers who pass over perfectly qualified candidates just because they're women; plenty of male classmates who harass women with "get back in the kitchen" jokes. One of my friends even dropped out of the program all together because of it.

> Why don't we try to make this profession more interesting to everybody, instead of focusing on just 50% of the people?

Because in order to make it more interesting to everybody, we need to even out our numbers. Otherwise, when we open up the field to everyone, all we're going to do is inflate the numbers without changing the ratio.

The total number isn't the problem; it's the ratio.

Re: Google sponsors over $150k of grants for female programmers

#68

Post by jacalata »

tomp wrote: post #60
ceol wrote: post #41

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If I have ten apples, and you have five apples, giving us both five apples doesn't make us equal. Likewise, giving both men and women grants (which are readily available anyway for both genders) doesn't suddenly fix the imbalance of women. It requires a targeted solution. > I don't want to end up in a workforce where people are working because it was a good financial decision from yesteryear. Well then you're barking…

This comment would be OK if we were talking about the profession of lawyers, or doctors, or investment bankers, but programmers?! Programming is an ideal career for the introverted and "socially awkward". You don't need formal education, you don't need to talk to people, all you need is a computer and a book or internet connection, and most importantly, curiosity and desire to explore and learn about computers. You c…

I'm pretty sure there are significant movements around attracting "everybody" to programming already, btw. This is "computer science week" in the USA, for crying out loud. If you want to join a discussion, try reading hacker news to get major announcements like "president of USA says everyone should learn to code", or to hear about the"programmer bootcamp" options that are trying to attract non-programmers to the profession. There are also lots of programs starting in elementary school aiming to attract kids, for instance.

Perhaps a change you could make personally, as a step to making it more broadly attractive, would be to stop advertising it as something only introverts with no social skills would like? (What percentage of people are in that group? Less than 50?)

Re: Google sponsors over $150k of grants for female programmers

#69

Post by ceol »

belorn wrote: post #66
ceol wrote: post #52

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> but female schoolteachers do not consider the lack of men to be a problem with their industry Source? Because I'm sure if you talked to any teacher, they'd tell you they would prefer a more balanced selection of primary school teachers. The least you could do is a simple Google search,[0] which would show there is a movement to get more men into teaching. > after looking at the individuals, more of them may belong…

Checking for similar grants such as the one by google, I found ( http://www.ehow.com/info_8641285_grants-male-teachers.html ). It was interesting that none of the grants are "if you are male, thats it. Here is a bunch of money". It is either for teacher that are willing to cater to students from low-income families, or African American male teachers. I guess Google could add a condition to their grant, in which only…

Google's grant doesn't give women a whole bunch of money solely on the basis of being a woman. They have to first qualify for Hacker School, and then they have to qualify for financial aid. Once they do all that, they get some money to help cover expenses while attending the school.

> or African American male teachers.

So then, what's the problem? They're still men, which is apparently the defining factor. That comment doesn't really help your case here; it just makes you look petty and a little bit racist.

> Is there any grants that gives men money just for the fact that they have male genitalia and are willing to enroll in education?

Gender has nothing to do with genitalia. You really aren't informed on this topic, are you?

Re: Google sponsors over $150k of grants for female programmers

#70

Post by prodigal_erik »

ceol wrote: post #41
1qaz2wsx3edc wrote: post #23

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's perplexing that to avoid gender discriminations, the solution is to discriminate against genders. I don't like these, I think they further the stigmatism that is native to our industry about gender discrimination. Specifically I'm bothered by direct benefits due to gender, I have no issue with educational programs as long as they remain open to all. I don't want to end up in a workforce where people are working…

If I have ten apples, and you have five apples, giving us both five apples doesn't make us equal. Likewise, giving both men and women grants (which are readily available anyway for both genders) doesn't suddenly fix the imbalance of women. It requires a targeted solution. > I don't want to end up in a workforce where people are working because it was a good financial decision from yesteryear. Well then you're barking…

> there are plenty of men who got into computer science because it's lucrative

And they're useless dilettantes we should drum out of the profession, not double down on. Any scholarship that doesn't focus on obsession will merely switch names around on the mountain of garbage our industry is producing.

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