Google sponsors over $150k of grants for female programmers • Hacker News Board

Re: Google sponsors over $150k of grants for female programmers

#71

Post by jacalata » Tue, Dec 10, 2013, 10:51 AM UTC

belorn wrote: post #66

ceol wrote: post #52

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> but female schoolteachers do not consider the lack of men to be a problem with their industry Source? Because I'm sure if you talked to any teacher, they'd tell you they would prefer a more balanced selection of primary school teachers. The least you could do is a simple Google search,[0] which would show there is a movement to get more men into teaching. > after looking at the individuals, more of them may belong…

Checking for similar grants such as the one by google, I found ( http://www.ehow.com/info_8641285_grants-male-teachers.html ). It was interesting that none of the grants are "if you are male, thats it. Here is a bunch of money". It is either for teacher that are willing to cater to students from low-income families, or African American male teachers. I guess Google could add a condition to their grant, in which only…

I have read that because teaching funding is usually from the government, "legal reasons" mean there are not many sex specific funds. Perhaps we need to find a private source of funds - bill gates puts a bunch of cash into educational stuff, he might be interested.

Re: Google sponsors over $150k of grants for female programmers

#72

Post by belorn » Tue, Dec 10, 2013, 10:51 AM UTC

ceol wrote: post #62

belorn wrote: post #57

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Are you defining preferential treatment as outreach? Thats not only a very odd definition, but also creates the idea that glass ceilings is some form of outreach for male leaders. The definition of "Outreach", is an method that are used to fill in the gap in the services provided by mainstream means, to the purpose of reaching groups who otherwise would not be aware of existing services (In this case, education). Thi…

> Outreach is used fill in the gap in the services provided by mainstream means Check. > to reach groups who otherwise would not be aware of existing services (In this case, education). Check. It does both things. It fills the gap of an affordable, welcoming resource for women who have an interest in programming, and it reaches women who would otherwise not be aware of a resource that is friendly toward them. You jus…

A appeal to authority fallacy will get you nowhere. I will counter your appeal to Google with my appeal to Mozilla. Mozilla believes in a mentor program and non-exclusive aid, which is exactly the right way to approach imbalance. It also helps that it has been proven to work in eliminating gender bias.

If you want sources, do you own research. like I said, Sweden education system tried and failed and that fact is not hard to find for yourself. Others has published articles such as http://www.scu.edu/ethics/publications/iie/v5n2/affirmative.... which paints the discussion as an debate with two sides. I do however like to point out that the only side that actually do research on the efficiency of preferential treatment programs are those who are against them. I have yet to see any study that show preferential treatments to be beneficially.

Can you provide any source what so ever that preferential treatments has ever worked to eliminate gender bias? Ever? Surely such sources should be all over the web?

Re: Google sponsors over $150k of grants for female programmers

#73

Post by evincarofautumn » Tue, Dec 10, 2013, 10:52 AM UTC

rimantas wrote: post #59

jrs99 wrote: post #46

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In my opinion, it's not an industry problem. It's a SOCIETY problem.

In my opinion it is not a problem at all. But some want to see it as a problem. I wonder if the same people consider underrepresentation of females in garbage disposal or plumbing as a problem too.

Sex underrepresentation isn’t a problem itself. It’s a potential source of problems—if you saw some statistical outlier while profiling software, you’d pay more attention to it and verify whether it’s causing issues. Homogeneity of any kind tends to create bias and brittleness.

When you ask women why they don’t program, there’s a mix of normal things like “I don’t find it interesting” and “I prefer X”; but many also say “I don’t feel welcome”, and I would like to improve on that. In the same way, when you ask black Americans why they don’t program, a disturbing number say things like “I never had access to a computer”.

Re: Google sponsors over $150k of grants for female programmers

#74

Post by 1qaz2wsx3edc » Tue, Dec 10, 2013, 10:59 AM UTC

ceol wrote: post #41

1qaz2wsx3edc wrote: post #23

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's perplexing that to avoid gender discriminations, the solution is to discriminate against genders. I don't like these, I think they further the stigmatism that is native to our industry about gender discrimination. Specifically I'm bothered by direct benefits due to gender, I have no issue with educational programs as long as they remain open to all. I don't want to end up in a workforce where people are working…

If I have ten apples, and you have five apples, giving us both five apples doesn't make us equal. Likewise, giving both men and women grants (which are readily available anyway for both genders) doesn't suddenly fix the imbalance of women. It requires a targeted solution. > I don't want to end up in a workforce where people are working because it was a good financial decision from yesteryear. Well then you're barking…

My concern is that it may be the wrong vehicle for change when they don't bark what they preach.

I feel the biggest contributors to change aren't large sums of money thrown at it. e-Learning, Bootcamps, or groups like ladies learning code, have, in my opinion, a better effect.

Re: Google sponsors over $150k of grants for female programmers

#75

Post by tomp » Tue, Dec 10, 2013, 11:07 AM UTC

jacalata wrote: post #68

tomp wrote: post #60

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This comment would be OK if we were talking about the profession of lawyers, or doctors, or investment bankers, but programmers?! Programming is an ideal career for the introverted and "socially awkward". You don't need formal education, you don't need to talk to people, all you need is a computer and a book or internet connection, and most importantly, curiosity and desire to explore and learn about computers. You c…

I'm pretty sure there are significant movements around attracting "everybody" to programming already, btw. This is "computer science week" in the USA, for crying out loud. If you want to join a discussion, try reading hacker news to get major announcements like "president of USA says everyone should learn to code", or to hear about the"programmer bootcamp" options that are trying to attract non-programmers to the pro…

It's not something only introverts with no social skills like, it's one of the rare high-paying jobs where you can succeed even if you are an introvert with no social skills.

Re: Google sponsors over $150k of grants for female programmers

#76

Post by tomp » Tue, Dec 10, 2013, 11:09 AM UTC

ceol wrote: post #67

tomp wrote: post #60

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This comment would be OK if we were talking about the profession of lawyers, or doctors, or investment bankers, but programmers?! Programming is an ideal career for the introverted and "socially awkward". You don't need formal education, you don't need to talk to people, all you need is a computer and a book or internet connection, and most importantly, curiosity and desire to explore and learn about computers. You c…

> nothing is stopping women from becoming top-notch hackers. A lot is. Contrary to your comment, programmers have to interact with other people in order to participate in the industry, whether they're in college learning or have just taught themselves and are looking for a job. I've had quite a few female friends tell me about high school teachers and college professors who told them, straight to their faces, that pr…

> high school teachers and college professors who told them, straight to their faces, that programming was "for men" and they don't belong. There are still plenty of male employers who pass over perfectly qualified candidates just because they're women; plenty of male classmates who harass women with "get back in the kitchen" jokes.

And what is this kind of announcements/programs doing to change that?

Re: Google sponsors over $150k of grants for female programmers

#77

Post by dwaltrip » Tue, Dec 10, 2013, 11:28 AM UTC

ixacto wrote: post #24

dyno12345 wrote: post #18

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Just give them 3/4's as much. $2000 * 3/4 = $1500. Simple really.

How about we give them 3/5ths as much...or ditch the discrimination all together.

Winning money in a coding contest isn't a constitutional right. The comments in this thread are tiring.

Re: Google sponsors over $150k of grants for female programmers

#78

Post by dwaltrip » Tue, Dec 10, 2013, 11:37 AM UTC

CmonDev wrote: post #55

mostafaberg wrote: post #34

Consider this, what if the title was "Google sponsors over $150k of grants for male programmers" ?

Then it would've been sexist. Did no one tell you being a white straight healthy male is a crime?

Life isn't fair. People are born into random circumstances outside of their control that vastly affect the quality and direction of their life. Sociey has developed in an imperfect fashion, and has many issues. These problems are complex, and there is no silver bullet. Some people are trying to create a positive impact, and hopefully make things a little better. Meanwhile, you sit here bitching about "reverse discrimination". What is your better solution?

Re: Google sponsors over $150k of grants for female programmers

#79

Post by nailer » Tue, Dec 10, 2013, 11:42 AM UTC

ceol wrote: post #64

nailer wrote: post #58

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>> but female schoolteachers do not consider the lack of men to be a problem with their industry > I'm sure if you talked to any teacher, they'd tell you they would prefer a more balanced selection of primary school teachers. That's a different matter. One may wish there to be more male teachers, but that does not mean one considers the lack of male teachers a problem with the industry. >> after looking at the indivi…

> One may wish there to be more male teachers, but that does not mean one considers the lack of male teachers a problem with the industry. So then... your source? Because I'm sure if you talked to any random teacher, they would tell you that the lack of men in teaching is a problem with the industry. You're still not providing anything to back up your claims. > after evaluating each individual on the basis of their m…

> > One may wish there to be more male teachers, but that does not mean one considers the lack of male teachers a problem with the industry.

> So then... your source?

This is a logical argument. You claimed you spoke to teachers and found something that doesn't correspond to my assertion to be true. I pointed out that it may be true, but it doesn't correspond to my assertion.

If you are now asserting that teachers, in addition to wanting more men in the industry, also think that the lack of men is a problem with their industry, then it's up to you to prove your assertion. And not with 'if you talked to any random teacher'.

>>> That line of thinking inevitably leads to saying men's brains are "wired" to "think a certain way", which has been proven false each time it's brought up.

>> Male and female brains have massive differences in the amount of gray and white matter for one thing [1], connectivity [2], and size [3].

> Your first link doesn't show that women are less likely to be programmers.

That's correct. All the links are direct responses to your assertion that "men's brains are "wired" to "think a certain way" has been proven false each time it's brought up."

I have provided cited three papers to disprove a claim that I've quoted and you've responded by saying it doesn't disprove something else. I'm not going to bother spending time arguing with a child.

Re: Google sponsors over $150k of grants for female programmers

#80

Post by CmonDev » Tue, Dec 10, 2013, 11:45 AM UTC

dwaltrip wrote: post #78

CmonDev wrote: post #55

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Then it would've been sexist. Did no one tell you being a white straight healthy male is a crime?

Life isn't fair. People are born into random circumstances outside of their control that vastly affect the quality and direction of their life. Sociey has developed in an imperfect fashion, and has many issues. These problems are complex, and there is no silver bullet. Some people are trying to create a positive impact, and hopefully make things a little better. Meanwhile, you sit here bitching about "reverse discrim…

How about "Google sponsors over $150k of grants for programmers with most open source contributions" or "Google sponsors over $150k of grants for programmers that win an online hackaton for newbies" or "Google sponsors over $150k of grants for programmers with best school grades or most impressive hobby projects"?