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Ask HN: Why the Microsoft hate?

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Re: Ask HN: Why the Microsoft hate?

#161

In case you are genuinely wondering, a lot of the hate towards Microsoft stems from their historical hostility towards open standards[0] and open source[1]. [0] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Embrace,_extend_and_extinguish [1] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Halloween_documents

Apple maintains many of the same positions, yet they are loved. Apple actually uses a lot of open source, yet rarely contribute back. Microsoft Research contributes a ton to computing research. Note: writing this in Google Chrome on my Macbook

Well Google Chrome as of last year was based on Apple's open source Webkit so that's not quite true.

Re: Ask HN: Why the Microsoft hate?

#162

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You could just use OCaml, of which it is an obvious copy. You wouldn't get the whole MS stack, for better or worse.

Don Syme has added some interesting features to F# like type providers, so I think it is OK to say that F# has transcended its OCaml roots to become an interesting language in its own right.

Not to mention the approach to OOP is rather different in F#. It's syntactically and culturally different. Most OCaml programmers I know avoid OOP for the most part, whereas it's embraced to some extent in F#. Seems like a sort of "functional first, but feel free to use objects as you see fit" philosophy in F# versus a "functional always, objects are a failed experiment" philosophy in OCaml.

I don't mean to imply any judgment here, I'm just noting another difference between F# and OCaml.

Re: Ask HN: Why the Microsoft hate?

#163
I'll tell you the story of my friend Greg.

Greg has been a believer in Microsoft. He went to all the Tech-Ed conferences, attended every MSDN event he could. Conferences are grand stages that leave an impression. He drank all the cool-aid that was served at these conferences.

Things were really good early on, this was the last decade. The computing scene at that time revolved around Microsoft like the many moons of Jupiter. Greg and his team built products with Silverlight, WPF, .Net, Windows Workflow, Biztalk, Remoting, and the like. Every conference offered something new, something exciting. The apps they built worked great, looked great.

Fast forward to now. Greg is a decent programmer, but he wants a new job badly. The problem is that nobody wants to use all that stuff that he knows. People want to build on standards; apps that work on every device. Not just on Windows and not just on Internet Explorer. Greg still doesn't get it. He hasn't seen much of the world outside Microsoft, and still wonders why people don't want Silverlight. Still tells me how WPF is so much better that anything else out there. And running only on IE, why is that even a problem? Everybody has IE. Poor Greg, tough times.

There may be many issues with Microsoft. But more than anything else, I would fault them for building their entire ecosystem with total disregard for standards, their refusal to work with whatever community existed outside. This probably wasn't intentional, they must have probably believed in what they told their developers. Even though so much has changed since their glory days, there's a part of Microsoft which still refuses to engage.

There was a Steve Jobs interview from the late 90s in which he said, "The problem with Microsoft is that they have absolutely no taste". Jobs wasn't talking about aesthetics; it is true of pretty much everything from Microsoft. From UIs, to development frameworks, to tools, to shells and even APIs. Back then, having "no taste" was totally fine because people communicated far less.

Now we have a whole bunch of people who are stuck using this stuff. And many of them don't really get it yet.

Edit: I just saw that you work for Microsoft, and specifically Microsoft Research. You guys make awesome stuff. The above is mostly about the Windows platform.

Re: Ask HN: Why the Microsoft hate?

#164
post #163

I'll tell you the story of my friend Greg. Greg has been a believer in Microsoft. He went to all the Tech-Ed conferences, attended every MSDN event he could. Conferences are grand stages that leave an impression. He drank all the cool-aid that was served at these conferences. Things were really good early on, this was the last decade. The computing scene at that time revolved around Microsoft like the many moons of J…

[deleted]

Re: Ask HN: Why the Microsoft hate?

#165
post #32

For me, it's kind of like sports. Why do you hate certain teams? I'm a 90's linux user so my hate for MS is self explanatory and these days mostly irrational. Recently I found myself working with a group of Microsoft employees and it's tough to "hate" them, their company or the really nice products they flaunt around (Surface, Windows Phones, etc). There are a lot things that continue to feed my dislike for the compa…

I think I'd consider myself to be 90's Linux user (I have been using it since late 95 or so) and I think what I have to Microsoft is not really "hate" but strong distrust, that I actually, personally, as a Linux user, was receiving many of those harm. Just the word "Winmodem" gives me a chill.

Although today, it looks like it's not as bad as it used to be, but I would never forget about that. Around that time, I was high school age, so I guess I was more susceptible, too :-)

Re: Ask HN: Why the Microsoft hate?

#166
post #163

I'll tell you the story of my friend Greg. Greg has been a believer in Microsoft. He went to all the Tech-Ed conferences, attended every MSDN event he could. Conferences are grand stages that leave an impression. He drank all the cool-aid that was served at these conferences. Things were really good early on, this was the last decade. The computing scene at that time revolved around Microsoft like the many moons of J…

Interesting take. At the moment, though, there's no "standard" for apps - just a variety of different platforms, of which Windows is one (with an ever-declining market share). Obviously there's the web-as-platform, but I wouldn't treat that the same as a native system.

Re: Ask HN: Why the Microsoft hate?

#168
post #30

My startup friends and I here in Brisbane, Australia talk quite a bit about going to San Fran to "soak up the start-up vibe". I often joke about having the nerve to set up camp in a coffee shop there and whip out my Surface Pro, fire up visual studio, and sling some C# and see how quickly I'll get hated on. I do wonder, will that really happen? Honest question.

Just begging for some sort of poke.... Hmm how about: Even if you got some negative comments it wouldn't be much as you would have to put it away when its battery died before long ;D Seriously C# is nice and while I am a die hard unix guy I wouldn't be caught owning a MS laptop myself I am coding with C# server code at work at am enjoying the experience. I would honestly be curious what you could do doing in C#. MS i…

According to Microsoft, JavaScript has been the future of Windows desktop applications since at least 1997. I wouldn't worry about it too much.

Re: Ask HN: Why the Microsoft hate?

#169
post #161

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Apple maintains many of the same positions, yet they are loved. Apple actually uses a lot of open source, yet rarely contribute back. Microsoft Research contributes a ton to computing research. Note: writing this in Google Chrome on my Macbook

Well Google Chrome as of last year was based on Apple's open source Webkit so that's not quite true.

Webkit comes from KDE's KHTML project which was GPL'ed. Apple was required to open-source it.

Re: Ask HN: Why the Microsoft hate?

#170
post #81

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That article was not flagged off the frontpage. It set off the flamewar detector. As for recoiledsnake, that is one of many accounts created by a group or individual who is either an astroturfer or indistinguishable from one. Part of his/her/their m.o. is to talk constantly about there being an anti-Microsoft conspiracy on HN. Sometimes he/she/they would use multiple, separate accounts in the same thread.

So the article might be useful to people building businesses in the tech space, but because some users decided to air their petty grievances in the _comments_ to that story, the story itself got buried? Seems like the flamewar detector would be better aimed at closing comments rather than burying stories.

I like the flamewar detector removing the whole story. As PG has said in the past, flamewars aren't interesting and they do nothing but divide the community. Keeping the story on just causes more drama because the users with comments deleted end up replying asking where their comments went and then start crying about anti-Americanism and the right to comment on a private website ad infinitum. It's pointless.
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