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Ask HN: Why the Microsoft hate?

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Re: Ask HN: Why the Microsoft hate?

#151

Post by einhverfr »

spamizbad wrote: post #35

I'd like to thank you for offering that "Full Disclosure" - it represents how Microsoft culture has changed over the years (for the better). In earlier times, Microsoft would often encourage its employees to covertly astroturf on its behalf on various internet forums or news groups. This happened on Arstechnica years ago, and involved quite a bit of drama when one of the mods traced the IP of a poster back to Redmond…

It is true that Microsoft has changed a lot. (I used to work there.)

However I have trouble getting too excited about a lot of Microsoft technologies. There are some good ones out there for some things, don't get me wrong. Microsoft SQL Server has some really nice features for developers, for example, and Microsoft Access is a really nice db front-end RAD tool, if you pair it with a real database server.

But, in the end, I there are only so many things one can get excited about. I find PostgreSQL more exciting than MS SQL Server, for example.

Microsoft has become a lot more accepting of FOSS than it was when I was first hired (I watched some of this shift while I was there, but it has gone a lot further since I left). This is good. But in the end, it feels like so much Microsoft stuff is legacy technology for those of us who have made the switch that it is just hard to stay excited.

Re: Ask HN: Why the Microsoft hate?

#152

Post by beagle3 »

captainmojo wrote: post #135
primelens wrote: post #111

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This! Many hackers who were growing up in the nineties had their opinions of Microsoft negatively affected by the strongarm tactics applied against Linux and open-source/free software. I'd say this strategy continues - e.g. "secure" boot, but the late nineties was when the animosity between the two groups peaked and it has never quite gone away. And I'd add the antitrust case and IE's intransigence to web standards a…

Speaking only from my own experience, the Microsoft shops I worked in were quick to regurgitate the FUD talking points that Microsoft had been spreading. This strengthened my Anti-MS resolve instead of weakening it, and the shops since then have increasingly enjoyed the benefits of that resolve, creating a positive feedback loop in the process. I owe Microsoft a huge debt of gratitude for stoking the fire. As much as…

They created a useless debate as FUD. There is no real debate about e.g. GPL vitality any more than MS stack virality. There is no real debate about Linux copyright or patent legitimacy.

Re: Ask HN: Why the Microsoft hate?

#153

Post by donretag »

olalonde wrote: post #20

In case you are genuinely wondering, a lot of the hate towards Microsoft stems from their historical hostility towards open standards[0] and open source[1]. [0] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Embrace,_extend_and_extinguish [1] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Halloween_documents

Apple maintains many of the same positions, yet they are loved. Apple actually uses a lot of open source, yet rarely contribute back. Microsoft Research contributes a ton to computing research.

Note: writing this in Google Chrome on my Macbook

Re: Ask HN: Why the Microsoft hate?

#154

Post by kvb »

fleitz wrote: post #57
imsofuture wrote: post #46

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Same here. With the caveat that C# + F# are crazy awesome, not that I'm jumping at the bit to work with them again...

F# is the bomb. Once in a while I even consider running ASP on mono so I can use F#, then I realize I'd need a windows box with Visual Studio and decide against it.

Why would you need that? The F# compiler's open source and runs just fine in MonoDevelop/Xamarin Studio (or outside of an IDE, for that matter).

Re: Ask HN: Why the Microsoft hate?

#155

Post by beagle3 »

seanmcdirmid wrote: post #67
kefka wrote: post #49

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Aside the whole Communist topic.. Ye who enters that debate lies in Internet flamewars. Who cares what Microsoft did to the community. They changed SMB protocol to screw up open source devs. They intentionally fouled up Kerberos authentication. They added API after API in part to foul up WINE. Not only that, but then they continuously stagnated on any sort of browser development until Mozilla kicked in. But that's th…

Microsoft Research is the only company still doing pure CS research that I'm aware of. This is widely acknowledged also, even by my peers who are working for Google (we talk often, Apple is completely MIA from the research space).

And that gives MS some love in academic circles. But that's all it should give them.

Re: Ask HN: Why the Microsoft hate?

#156

Post by jessaustin »

seanmcdirmid wrote: post #73
martey wrote: post #56

You have not provided any evidence that flagging is the reason that articles about the Nokia Lumia 2520 fell off of the front page. It is entirely possible that they disappeared because not enough people were interested in upvoting marketing information about a tablet running Windows RT. So is HN basically becoming Slashdot where Microsoft hate occurs by default? The guidelines for this site suggest that it is bad fo…

The article definitely had enough upvotes to stay on the front page; it was definitely knocked two pages back for some reason, and someone admitted to flagging. My account is more than a year old, I have 3000+ karma, and I have a low number on Slashdot as well (and made the front page in 1998). The bias is real and documented. I posted my own original comment with no expectation but to express my pleasure, most peopl…

...made the front page in 1998.

Congratulations!

Re: Ask HN: Why the Microsoft hate?

#157

Post by 300bps »

nikatwork wrote: post #147
300bps wrote: post #139

Earlier quoted context omitted.

With all due respect you're just another OSS evangelist comparing RoR to Visual Basic, Classic ASP and ASP.NET. It is a silly comparison but it is so unbelievably common here. Try comparing it to ASP.NET MVC and you'll see that Microsoft actually has a modern and compelling offering. They really haven't sit still since you've been gone.

The funny thing is I never mentioned RoR in my GP, so you inserted that comparison in your own head. I'm talking about a complete OSS ecosystem - dev language, servers, VC, deployment tools, monitoring etc. I work at enterprise scale in FIRE, and there is so much more to successful project delivery than just language/IDE. BTW I had to bandage up a limping ASP.NET MVC app about three years ago for a large Canadian tel…

Inserted the comparison in my head or read your subsequent comment that prominently mentions RoR? For a hint, it is the latter.

As for your claim to have "bandaged a limping ASP.NET MVC app about three years ago", you might not be aware that version 1.0 was only released about 4 years ago and that they're currently at version 5.1. How much work with Razor syntax have you done considering it didn't exist three years ago?

Re: Ask HN: Why the Microsoft hate?

#158

Post by fnordfnordfnord »

I didn't flag the article, nor would I have, unless I thought there was an active advert-spamming campaign or something. But, to answer your question: They are just so badly behaved as a company. The issues are as old as the hills and have been beaten to death (the Halloween Documents were ca 1998, for example) and were ongoing for many years and even continue to this day (USDOJ antitrust, Java, SCO vs Everything, IE, Word Document formats, interoperability & standards, etc., etc.). So much energy was wasted doing unproductive things to the industry. I'm surprised if any of this is news to anyone.

Re: Ask HN: Why the Microsoft hate?

#159

Post by mixmastamyk »

nonchalance wrote: post #148

I suspect that most people here who hate Microsoft still use products like Excel (for which there is no good competitor :) And maybe that's part of the reason for the hate: for all the problems, there are a few indispensable products that keep us coming back to windows and office and other Microsoft products.

As a developer I have no need for office programs. On the odd chance I get sent a file, libre-office is plenty fine.

Re: Ask HN: Why the Microsoft hate?

#160

Post by Fargren »

nikatwork wrote: post #147
300bps wrote: post #139

Earlier quoted context omitted.

With all due respect you're just another OSS evangelist comparing RoR to Visual Basic, Classic ASP and ASP.NET. It is a silly comparison but it is so unbelievably common here. Try comparing it to ASP.NET MVC and you'll see that Microsoft actually has a modern and compelling offering. They really haven't sit still since you've been gone.

The funny thing is I never mentioned RoR in my GP, so you inserted that comparison in your own head. I'm talking about a complete OSS ecosystem - dev language, servers, VC, deployment tools, monitoring etc. I work at enterprise scale in FIRE, and there is so much more to successful project delivery than just language/IDE. BTW I had to bandage up a limping ASP.NET MVC app about three years ago for a large Canadian tel…

Well, he did reply half an hour after you mentioned RoR. So it's possible that he just chose to reply to your first post because he thought replying to the other one would derail that discussion.

Not that I care, not having used any of the technologies discussed here other than a little VS, that a I liked, and a little VSS, that I hated.

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