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Swiss to vote on 2,500 franc basic income for every adult

reuters.com

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Re: Swiss to vote on 2,500 franc basic income for every adult

#361

Post by tnorthcutt »

urish wrote: post #357
danbmil99 wrote: post #336

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This assumes a static proportion of "lazy" or unethical people. I think the counterargument is one of moral hazard: if you reward laziness, more and more people will decide to be lazy. There is also a motivational issue -- many people (I suspect) will find it harder to work for a living if they sense that their hard-earned money is taxed and given away to freeloaders.

But why would you equate "lazy" with unethical? That's already an assumption that could be challenged. We now don't deem someone who's unwilling to work from sun up to sun down in the rice fields as lazy or unethical, but 300 years ago that might have been the case. Why? Because now a few people grow our food so efficiently that most people can afford to be "lazy" and work 40 hours a week in an office job, or at leas…

But the rest of us pay the efficient farmers for that food. That's the difference.

Re: Swiss to vote on 2,500 franc basic income for every adult

#362

Post by handzhiev »

ashray wrote: post #4
tikhonj wrote: post #2

A Swiss franc is currently worth a little bit more than a dollar, so this works out to $2800/month or $33600/year. By US standards, this actually seems to be a good salary: significantly better than working full time at minimum wage. It would cover all my current expenses handily. Of course, I'm young and single but by no means frugal. (I find that the little costs involved in worrying about my expenses easily outwei…

Just bear in mind for your calculations that in Switzerland a cup of coffee often costs $6 as does a can of coke. Cost of living is extremely high. But still, this does look like a decent deal. Zurich is like San Francisco in terms of expenses.

What stops you get your basic income and fly to East Europe every month (cheap flights available for less than $100) where you can live pretty well with this money?

Re: Swiss to vote on 2,500 franc basic income for every adult

#363

Post by gwu78 »

tikhonj wrote: post #2

A Swiss franc is currently worth a little bit more than a dollar, so this works out to $2800/month or $33600/year. By US standards, this actually seems to be a good salary: significantly better than working full time at minimum wage. It would cover all my current expenses handily. Of course, I'm young and single but by no means frugal. (I find that the little costs involved in worrying about my expenses easily outwei…

A well crafted comment.

But I have a thought experiment for you.

"One of the main questions about this is who would do boring, low paid work..."

First, let's assume we are starting from scratch and reassigning what "work" is compensated with pay and what work is not.

For the purposes of our thought experiment, ignore "low paid" and "high paid" below, because we have not yet decided what work will be compensated with pay, let alone how much pay. Hence "boring, low paid work" becomes just "boring work".

Next, let's further assume that "boring work" describes the type of work that people do not normally want to do.

And here's the though experiment: What if the converse of "boring work" (e.g., "interesting work") was not actually "work"?

That is, what if "interesting work" was not compensated? What if people were not paid for doing what they are naturally inclined to do, i.e., for doing what they love?

What if we only compensated people for doing "boring work"?

Remarkably, this actually does not sound too far from reality. Because that is exactly what many people do in order to be compensated: boring work. Similarly, many of us do plenty of "work" for which we are not compensated.

What's different about the thought experiment is that we reassess whether persons who refuse to do boring work in favor of interesting work should actually be paid. After all, they are doing what they love. And they would presumably do this regardless of payment.

If only the "grunt workers" get paid, then we have created an incentive to do grunt work. We have not removed the incentive to do more interesting, "higher level" work because that incentive does not find its basis in compensation, for this is the "work" that people actually want to do, regardless of payment. Or so that's what they always tell us.

Re: Swiss to vote on 2,500 franc basic income for every adult

#364

Post by ricardobeat »

Camillo wrote: post #337
Systemic33 wrote: post #191

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's funny you should mention that last part, because that's exactly the situation in Denmark. We have in my opinion a waaay too high basic income, and there is a growing problem, with people who'd rather live on governement payouts, than get a job. And the nationalists are getting anxious about immigration, so there is a populist party that is against immigration, that is getting bigger and bigger support. It is ove…

As a member of the EU, how do you keep people from other EU countries from just moving to Denmark and claiming benefits?

Simply crossing borders doesn't give you citizenship.

Re: Swiss to vote on 2,500 franc basic income for every adult

#365

Post by malandrew »

TelmoMenezes wrote: post #290
tikhonj wrote: post #2

A Swiss franc is currently worth a little bit more than a dollar, so this works out to $2800/month or $33600/year. By US standards, this actually seems to be a good salary: significantly better than working full time at minimum wage. It would cover all my current expenses handily. Of course, I'm young and single but by no means frugal. (I find that the little costs involved in worrying about my expenses easily outwei…

> One of the main questions about something like this is about who would do boring, low-paid work with this sort of basic income. I believe this would not be a problem in the long run for the following reasons: - A lot of boring low-pay work is unnecessary (dealing with the endless paper trail of over-complicated bureaucracies, lots of things that companies do, like telemarketing, just because it's so cheap, etc. etc…

A lot of the necessary boring work could also be done by people who want additional disposable income. They just wouldn't be forced to work full time, instead opting to only work as many hours as is necessary to meet their disposable income needs.

On the other hand, I'm wondering what a minimum livable wage does pricewise and scarcity-wise for all goods and services that those on a minimum livable wage earn. There would probably be an upwards inflationary effect on the prices of those goods, countered by economies of scale. This would apply to pretty much all basic expenses except housing, which would largely only go up because you can't make more land in desirable places.

If there is a minimum livable wage, I would still imagine that opting to only use it and no other income would still force you to leave city centers where rent is too high to afford. You may still have to worry about losing your job, because the minimum livable wage wouldn't cover your rent or mortgage.

Re: Swiss to vote on 2,500 franc basic income for every adult

#366

Post by malandrew »

marvin wrote: post #238
001sky wrote: post #158

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The exchange rate that would equalise the price of a Swiss Big Mac with an American one is SFr1.55 to the dollar; the actual exchange rate is only 0.96. [1] == Swiss Franc is most overvalued currency [1] http://www.economist.com/blogs/graphicdetail/2012/01/daily-c...

As always, you are welcome to take up a very big CHF loan and put your money where your mouth is ;) I expect you have a 50% chance of making money. The actual explanation is a lot simpler; McDonalds employees are more expensive in Switzerland than in the US. You can see the same effect where I live, in Norway.

TBH, of all the different companies out there, McDonald's is the one that I am shocked has not become far more automated. They operate on a scale that no other food industry business operates, yet many of the tasks are still done by people. Why don't we have fully automatic fry machines by now for example?

Re: Swiss to vote on 2,500 franc basic income for every adult

#367

Post by gaius »

ZenoArrow wrote: post #300
gaius wrote: post #202

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Sure, Cambodia is one, North Korea, China in the 50s, Zimbabwe... Millions dead.

In what way were Pol Pot era Cambodia and Mugabe era Zimbabwe political experiments? They were/are dictators! There's nothing remotely radical about dictatorships.

Sure they were. Google "year zero". And Mugabe's experiment is seeing if "war veterans" make good farmers. Before he came to power Zimbabwe was called The Breadbasket Of Africa...

Re: Swiss to vote on 2,500 franc basic income for every adult

#368

Post by gnaritas »

marknutter wrote: post #299
TelmoMenezes wrote: post #290

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> One of the main questions about something like this is about who would do boring, low-paid work with this sort of basic income. I believe this would not be a problem in the long run for the following reasons: - A lot of boring low-pay work is unnecessary (dealing with the endless paper trail of over-complicated bureaucracies, lots of things that companies do, like telemarketing, just because it's so cheap, etc. etc…

I see it differently. If people are receiving a basic income their performance at a job becomes much less important. Why care if you do a good job if losing it doesn't really impact you that negatively?

> Why care if you do a good job if losing it doesn't really impact you that negatively?

That statement says a lot about how you think; everyone is not like you. Many people take pride in what they do and do it well regardless of compensation, it's not about the money, it's about the fulfillment one gets from a job well done.

Re: Swiss to vote on 2,500 franc basic income for every adult

#369

Post by sologoub »

fnordfnordfnord wrote: post #326
downandout wrote: post #260

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I am not an economist, but this sounds like a recipe for massive inflation. At some point, the spending power of the basic income, regardless of the actual amount given, will approach zero. Free money, health care, food, and unicorns for everyone sounds great, but these models are notorious for not working out well.

>these models are notorious for not working out well. I guess you know because you've seen it tried so many times? Here is a fact for your non-economist economic model. Automation is displacing labor. And, here is a prediction: Automation will continue to displace labor until most menial labor tasks are gone.

You forgot the direct causal effect this has on demand. The more labor is displaced, the more demand will need to come from somewhere else, and that is a massive problem to have.

When automation increased productivity during most of the last century, demand grew and economy prospered. When towards the end of the century, automation started to cannibalize jobs, we started to rely more and more on debt. And that's where we are today.

While there is likely some inflation, it would be really interesting to see how it balances out (if it does) against the benefits of added extra demand.

Re: Swiss to vote on 2,500 franc basic income for every adult

#370

Post by brit155 »

alextingle wrote: post #266
rayiner wrote: post #262

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I wish we could deport people who throw around the "racist" label casually. There is nothing racist about believing that big, complex, interdependent societies function best when people share basic values, beliefs, and culture. It's the difference between multiculturalism as practiced in the U.S., where e.g. asian immigrants to the west coast have assimilated the basic values of american society while remaining disti…

I can assure you, I didn't use the term casually. > many muslim immigrants refuse to assimilate to the point of wanting to be governed by separate sets of laws That's a tiny minority of the UK's immigrant community. Drawing general conclusions from such an unrepresentative sample is intellectually dishonest. It's the kind of argument seized upon by hate-mongers.

It seems like you're the ignorant one here.

Center for Social Cohesion: One Third of British Muslim students support killing for Islam

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1340599/WikiLeaks-1-...

http://www.socialcohesion.co.uk/pdf/IslamonCampus.pdf

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