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Don't Fly During Ramadan

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Re: Don't Fly During Ramadan

#521

Post by elliottcarlson »

Tloewald wrote: post #360
mindcrime wrote: post #254

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What a load of shit. "Security guys" should be fucking competent or they shouldn't be "security guys" at all. And who cares about some "keep the sheep fearful and in line" propoganda shit the US government puts out about supposed threats to embassies or whatever? The "opt-out" he elected is explicitly defined as a valid procedure by the TSA, so citing that as "suspicious" is bullshit. And "behavioural red flag?" Are…

> "Security guys" should be fucking competent or they shouldn't be "security guys" at all. I'd say the same of Java programmers, but we know that's not true, and Java coders get much better salaries. > And "behavioural red flag?" Are you shitting me? In Britain for many years the main security measure at Heathrow was for security people to simply interview passengers on check in and ask them about their bags, where t…

> In Britain for many years the main security measure at Heathrow was for security people to simply interview passengers on check in and ask them about their bags, where they were traveling, etc. -- the main purpose was to look for behavioral cues and not so much obtain answers to the questions. I believe this is one of the things TSA officers are supposed to receive training in.

This is the case in US airports as well. I recently flew back to Belgium from JFK in NYC. Before you go through screening you get asked those questions by someone, who then writes something on your boarding pass.

Re: Don't Fly During Ramadan

#522

Post by zem »

corresation wrote: post #72

It is a terrible ordeal, but for all of the other factors brought up the critical factor is that he set off an explosion detector (and clearly it doesn't get false positives often given the response they showed). Everything else (about Ramadan, being Hindi, the color of one's skin, etc) may be nothing more than decorations, and no one here knows what would happen if John Smith Anglosaxon set off the same detector in…

why do people insist on using the phrase "repeatedly set off the explosive detector"? if there is a substance on his person or bags that made the detector register a false positive, it is naturally going to register that same false positive every time it is run over said substance. the repetition means nothing.

Re: Don't Fly During Ramadan

#523

Post by paganel »

jwr wrote: post #73

The land of the free. As I read more and more of those stories I can't help but wonder at how things changed. I am from a formerly-eastern-europe-soviet-bloc country (Poland) and these kinds of oppressive techniques sound very familiar. The haziness of procedures, lack of basic rights, intimidation, no accountability of state officials -- we've seen all that until 1989. At the time, while the communist regime was imp…

> I can't even imagine being held captive without arrest for hours, being questioned about the purpose of my trip, about my religion and habits, all while travelling within my country

I also grew in an Eastern European country (Romania), and I remember thinking about those poor Soviet citizens who needed passports to travel inside the USSR. It all seemed very surreal, having to have special approval from your government in order to travel inside your own country.

Re: Don't Fly During Ramadan

#524

Post by vecinu »

jellicle wrote: post #501
corresation wrote: post #72

It is a terrible ordeal, but for all of the other factors brought up the critical factor is that he set off an explosion detector (and clearly it doesn't get false positives often given the response they showed). Everything else (about Ramadan, being Hindi, the color of one's skin, etc) may be nothing more than decorations, and no one here knows what would happen if John Smith Anglosaxon set off the same detector in…

The explosive detectors give false positives all the time. Any kind of lotion or hand soap contains glycerin - beep! Any kind of preserved meat product contains nitrates - beep! Fertilizer? Beep! Fireworks? Beep! Heart medication? Beep! The tests they use are intentionally cheap and fast. Accuracy is not the primary criteria. For white people you get an extra 30 second pat down. For brown people you get detained and…

You don't think the tests are cheap and fast to allow waiting lines to move faster and to save money?

Everything would move much slower if you had to wait 5 minutes in an 'expensive and slow' device.

Re: Don't Fly During Ramadan

#525

Post by thesteamboat »

anigbrowl wrote: post #334
mindcrime wrote: post #318

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In this case, the pertinent detail is the fact the man set of explosive detectors. I'd argue that the pertinent detail is that he wasn't actually carrying any explosives. The other details, far from suggesting oppressive state apparatus, suggested an assortment of rent-a-cops and airline staff that really weren't particularly well-prepared for the guy that couldn't account for the explosives and flagged other profili…

And because he turned out not to be carrying any explosives, he was let go. As above, what would you do if someone set off an explosives detector? Investigations should certainly be conducted politely and respectfully, but at the same time they need to be persistent enough to deal with the attempts of guilty parties to conceal the truth.

How accurate is the explosives detector? What is the rate of false positives?

Re: Don't Fly During Ramadan

#526

Post by duggieawesome »

Zimahl wrote: post #280
toddmorey wrote: post #173

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If events like Oklahoma City, Boston, and Sandy Hook have taught us anything, it's that terrorism doesn't have an ethnic profile. It's not only insulting, but also extremely unsafe to assume otherwise. I'm surprised and embarrassed by how representatives of my country treated him. I'm embarrassed by their cultural ignorance. There should at least be some better training. However, this should be a technology discussio…

First, Sandy Hook/Newtown wasn't terrorism. By definition it was not 'the use of violence and threats to intimidate or coerce, especially for political purposes.'[1]. It was more of a random spree killing. As for Boston, that's a terrible example because it was committed by Chechen Muslims. Second, we don't know if there was a false positive. Maybe some cleaner or the bed bug spray do have legitimate bomb-making uses…

Can't forget about the anthrax attacks. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2001_anthrax_attacks

Re: Don't Fly During Ramadan

#527

Post by rmxt »

cobrausn wrote: post #374
rayiner wrote: post #361

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Setting off an explosives detector isn't reasonable suspicion?

My wife set off an explosives detector once. They asked her if she had used any lotions, she said yes, hand lotion, and they let her go. This was about a year ago.

I'm sorry, but this is relevant to the original article in what way? No such courtesies were afforded to the author until long into the ordeal. (By my count of the author's timeline, ~2.5 hours after he stepped into the security lines.) The author mentioned explicitly that he cleaned his apartment and the TSA agent refused to give any indication that that might be cause for the flagging for explosives.

Regardless, contrarian anecdotal evidence does nothing to diminish the questionable approach to how airport security is, and in the author's case was, handled.

Re: Don't Fly During Ramadan

#528

Post by Zimahl »

serf wrote: post #400
Zimahl wrote: post #286

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You don't get protection from the 5th without actually using it. He didn't have to talk to the police/TSA/FBI/DHS but he willingly did. If he simply said 'I don't want to talk' and shut up that would've been the end of the questioning - but obviously not the ordeal.

how much of that applies to the TSA? I'd like to know for my own benefit during travel. I know how to speak to a policeman, but I was under the idea that the TSA had even larger authority.

All of it? Why would it only be a portion?

Just because you exercise the 5th doesn't mean the police or Feds have to suddenly make you comfortable.

He asked for water and probably could've gotten some if he had pushed the issue, it didn't seem as though he was being very vocal about being hungry and thirsty.

Re: Don't Fly During Ramadan

#529

Post by Cthulhu_ »

jrockway wrote: post #140
angersock wrote: post #104

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I've a friend who spent a good deal of time recently in Khazakhstan, and she was very amused by my attempts to express my fears of the United States becoming an authoritarian police state. She laughed and said that no, I did not understand what it was to have secret police following you about and all these other sorts of issues. The distressing thing is that we've been putting so much machinery into place, and gotten…

The distressing thing is that we've been putting so much machinery into place, and gotten the noose so well fitted, that when the bottom drops out we'll only have the briefest of short, sharp shocks before we find ourselves in a terrifyingly efficient machine of oppression. Or you can take the train.

tbh, when it comes to terrorist threats, I don't get it. The train is a much more obvious target - no security checks whatsoever, and yet, a bomb exploding in the front of a high-speed train (or just one at a particular location) will cause massive casualties. Hell, you don't even need a bomb, just look at the accident with the high-speed train in Spain the other day, just speed and not breaking is enough.

tbh, terrorists are kinda stupid.

Re: Don't Fly During Ramadan

#530

Post by aet »

chimeracoder wrote: post #185
amirmc wrote: post #152

Earlier quoted context omitted.

TSA does more than just airports "With little fanfare, the agency best known for airport screenings has vastly expanded its reach to sporting events, music festivals, rodeos, highway weigh stations and train terminals." http://www.nytimes.com/2013/08/06/us/tsa-expands-duties-beyo...

That thought is terrifying. I was afraid I was going to be put on the no-fly list afterwards and would have to travel back to NYC by train (a four-day trip). Even before this experience I used to avoid flying in favor of taking the train. I don't know what I'd do if the TSA became commonplace at train stations.

Yes, I suppose to some extent. Is the thought of getting blown up terrifying? Is there some trade-off at work here? Where is the line?
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