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Don't Fly During Ramadan

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Re: Don't Fly During Ramadan

#501

Post by jellicle »

corresation wrote: post #72

It is a terrible ordeal, but for all of the other factors brought up the critical factor is that he set off an explosion detector (and clearly it doesn't get false positives often given the response they showed). Everything else (about Ramadan, being Hindi, the color of one's skin, etc) may be nothing more than decorations, and no one here knows what would happen if John Smith Anglosaxon set off the same detector in…

The explosive detectors give false positives all the time. Any kind of lotion or hand soap contains glycerin - beep! Any kind of preserved meat product contains nitrates - beep! Fertilizer? Beep! Fireworks? Beep! Heart medication? Beep!

The tests they use are intentionally cheap and fast. Accuracy is not the primary criteria.

For white people you get an extra 30 second pat down. For brown people you get detained and interrogated all day.

Like drug dogs, false positives may be considered a bonus by the security apparatus because it allows the apparatus to work against the discriminated-against class and blame it on something else, as you have just done.

Re: Don't Fly During Ramadan

#502

Post by laureny »

icambron wrote: post #411
rayiner wrote: post #358

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm not sure if you understand what "profiled" means. He was pulled into questioning because he repeatedly set off the bomb detector. The questions about race/religion weren't profiling, because they weren't used to select him for additional scrutiny. They are part of a psychological battery designed to evaluate him without a harsh interrogation. These sorts of batteries were pioneered by the Israelis and are very ef…

An FBI agent in the article: "You’ll have to understand, when a person of your… background walks into here, traveling alone, and sets off our alarms, people start to get a bit nervous. I’m sure you’ve been following what’s been going on in the news recently. You’ve got people from five different branches of government all in here - we don’t do this just for fun." That's profiling. Edit to add: in other words "The que…

> It's profiling.

No, it's not. He was picked because he set off explosive detectors. Repeatedly.

The racial opinions of the person asking the questions doesn't change the fact that this is not racial profiling.

Re: Don't Fly During Ramadan

#503

Post by MichaelSalib »

rayiner wrote: post #361
greedo wrote: post #232

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Well, considering that red teams are routinely able to smuggle weapons and simulated explosive devices on aircraft fairly routinely, the current procedures are shit. Security theater at its finest. And you can't detain someone without reasonable suspicion which gives you the authority to investigate whether a crime has occurred. This detention can't be indefinite, and can't even come close to lasting 24 hours. Once y…

Setting off an explosives detector isn't reasonable suspicion?

My laptop once tested positive for TNT residue at ORD. They asked if I had any idea why it did, I said no, and they let me go after testing my shirt.

Re: Don't Fly During Ramadan

#504

Post by pooriaazimi »

jonahx wrote: post #336
codegeek wrote: post #109

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You are missing the point. yes he set off the explosion detector for which he should have been questioned and he was. The issue is how they did it. No water for hours ? You seriously think that it is ok ? The rest 5% decorations that you were talking about is lot more than just decorations.

> No water for hours? I often go until late afternoon or longer without realizing I haven't had any water to drink. This really doesn't seem that bad. The OP's claim that his mouth was like sandpaper because he hadn't had water for a few hours reads like hyperbole to me.

And Rumsfeld said "I stand for 8-10 hours a day. Why is standing limited to four hours?" and asked for detainees to be forced to stand up in "stress positions" for more than the previously specified (and already inhuman and torturous) 4 hours...

N.B.: I'm not pulling out a strawman, or claiming you agree in any way with what Rumsfeld did. I'm just pointing out that your logic could, and actually does, lead to such inhumane practices. So don't be too hasty to dismiss stuff like this just based on your personal experience and preferences. I'd personally die without drinking ample amount of water (not an illness; just habit, and it would make me really, really nervous and angry if you denied me water).

Re: Don't Fly During Ramadan

#506

Post by sspiff »

jrockway wrote: post #195
chimeracoder wrote: post #185

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That thought is terrifying. I was afraid I was going to be put on the no-fly list afterwards and would have to travel back to NYC by train (a four-day trip). Even before this experience I used to avoid flying in favor of taking the train. I don't know what I'd do if the TSA became commonplace at train stations.

Take the bus? Drive?

There's a poem that describes this behaviour: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/First_they_came…

Re: Don't Fly During Ramadan

#507

Post by twoodfin »

waqf wrote: post #475
twoodfin wrote: post #370

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think that Wikipedia article is far too sanguine about the likelihood that NPVIC would pass Constitutional muster. First, it's not likely that the wording of Article II truly grants state legislatures unlimited discretion in the selection of electors. A state law that required electors to be men or Methodists would surely be unconstitutional today. And as a result, there's almost certainly an equal protection argum…

Interesting comments, thanks. In fact this article seems to speak to NPVIC and the compacts clause: http://www.columbia.edu/cu/jlsp/pdf/Summer2009/02Pincus.42.4...

Yes, something like that note is more or less exactly what I'd expect SCOTUS' position to be. And I don't think it would be a close decision.

Then the question becomes, if Congress endorses the pact, could it go into effect? The success of an equal protection claim against the agreement is a little trickier to forecast, since the justices who typically support a broad reading of equal protection are likely to be the most sympathetic to arguments for eliminating the disparity between the popular vote and the EC. But I think the Court would see NPVIC, rightly, as an "end run" around the amendment process, and require that state elections remain state elections: States do not have the power to facilitate national or interstate plebiscites outside the usual Constitutional order.

Re: Don't Fly During Ramadan

#508

Post by sspiff »

jrockway wrote: post #140
angersock wrote: post #104

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I've a friend who spent a good deal of time recently in Khazakhstan, and she was very amused by my attempts to express my fears of the United States becoming an authoritarian police state. She laughed and said that no, I did not understand what it was to have secret police following you about and all these other sorts of issues. The distressing thing is that we've been putting so much machinery into place, and gotten…

The distressing thing is that we've been putting so much machinery into place, and gotten the noose so well fitted, that when the bottom drops out we'll only have the briefest of short, sharp shocks before we find ourselves in a terrifyingly efficient machine of oppression. Or you can take the train.

If you accept it by ignoring it, you're just waiting for them to come for your next means of transportation.

You need to speak up and protest _before_ it is too late. See https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/First_they_came…

Re: Don't Fly During Ramadan

#509

Post by laureny »

michael_h wrote: post #365
csallen wrote: post #349

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Can you cite sources for either of the two claims you made here? I'm genuinely curious.

"Most fake bombs missed by screeners" http://usatoday30.usatoday.com/travel/news/2007-10-17-airpor... It's usatoday, I know, but the reporting seems straightforward. Missed loaded guns: http://abcnews.go.com/Blotter/loaded-gun-slips-past-tsa-scre... http://abcnews.go.com/US/tsa-lets-loaded-guns-past-security-...

> "Most fake bombs missed by screeners"

Seems like the screening is working, then.

> Missed loaded guns:

This statistic is meaningless without the number of times where they caught loaded guns.

And once we have these numbers, make a suggestion to improve that percentage.

Re: Don't Fly During Ramadan

#510

Post by jrockway »

RyanMcGreal wrote: post #258
jrockway wrote: post #195

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Take the bus? Drive?

Please stop. Your comments here are glib, contemptuous and entirely unhelpful.

Just because I'm not hysterical about the TSA doesn't mean I can't comment here.

When you travel by air, you are cramming yourself into a small metal tube with 300 other people. The other 299 people want everyone there to be checked for weapons, so the government does this.

If you want to be able to travel without being screened, there are tons of options available to you. But the reality is, you have no right in the US to travel, and the government can set whatever standards they want for public spaces. There are plenty of options available for traveling without being screened. They cost more than the mainstream ones. (Buy your own plane and see how many TSA checkpoints you go through.) But just because something is expensive doesn't mean that you are being deprived by the government of some right.

If you want to fight the TSA, shouting "police state" just makes you look stupid. You should figure out how to examine the effectiveness of the TSA numerically, and explain that to your elected representatives. Has the TSA slowed the growth of the air travel industry? Are there racist patterns in the TSA's profiling? If you can prove something with data, people will listen. But whining about the end of the world on a website nobody reads isn't going to solve any problems. It just makes you look like an out-of-touch anti-authoritarian teenager.

Look: I really believe that you can get around the TSA and that it isn't a police state. This is not the Holocaust. This is not the end of the world. It's just an inconvenience you have to pay to get a $200 round-the-world flight.

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