Don't Fly During Ramadan • Hacker News Board

Re: Don't Fly During Ramadan

#271

Post by cobrausn » Thu, Aug 22, 2013, 6:52 PM UTC

jrockway wrote: post #140

angersock wrote: post #104

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I've a friend who spent a good deal of time recently in Khazakhstan, and she was very amused by my attempts to express my fears of the United States becoming an authoritarian police state. She laughed and said that no, I did not understand what it was to have secret police following you about and all these other sorts of issues. The distressing thing is that we've been putting so much machinery into place, and gotten…

The distressing thing is that we've been putting so much machinery into place, and gotten the noose so well fitted, that when the bottom drops out we'll only have the briefest of short, sharp shocks before we find ourselves in a terrifyingly efficient machine of oppression. Or you can take the train.

The drop seems shorter if you keep your eyes closed.

Re: Don't Fly During Ramadan

#272

Post by bayesianhorse » Thu, Aug 22, 2013, 6:53 PM UTC

JshWright wrote: post #141

bayesianhorse wrote: post #60

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I admit, the TSA in this case didn't do racial profiling. They skipped that step, and went straight on to "rabid racism". That they apparently had no idea what a Hindu is doesn't make it one bit better.

Did you miss the fact that he triggered the explosive residue detector several times? As the article itself describes... when he skipped the pat-down (and therefore skipped the ERD), no one batted an eye at his race.

Even if the chemical detector did trigger an alarm: These devices are not faultproof, and if you can't find an explosive, can't find surgical scars, can't find anything in the baggage, you could safely assume the passenger does not have any explosives on or in himself.

The only explanation that makes more sense if the TSA, NSA or FBI had warnings about very cleverly implanted explosive devices and want to keep that knowledge hidden. That would explain why the pat-downs didn't convince them (maybe they tried to evoke a pain response), why they didn't give him anything to eat or drink, and why the JetBlue representative didn't want him to fly on this day, but was fine with the next day...

Re: Don't Fly During Ramadan

#273

Post by jlgreco » Thu, Aug 22, 2013, 6:54 PM UTC

pinaceae wrote: post #218

jlgreco wrote: post #89

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Here, the process worked. So a false negative is it "not working" but a false positive is it working? How about no.

at the end they let him go. he triggered alarms, they checked, determined him not a threat, let him go. false positive would be him charged with terrorism.

That is an absurd redefinition of failure that serves no purpose but to make the TSA look better.

If he were charged you'd undoubtedly just redefine "false positive" to be falsely convicted, not 'merely' charged.

Re: Don't Fly During Ramadan

#274

Post by 67726e » Thu, Aug 22, 2013, 6:54 PM UTC

JshWright wrote: post #261

ferdo wrote: post #198

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I have proof and past experience with dishonest government employees. Please take your arguments for chemtrails elsewhere.

Sure, but what you're talking about is widespread conspiracy to allow ERDs to be 'triggered' manually. I think that theory warrants about as much consideration as chemtrails.

He never said they manually triggered an alarm. He said they could very well be lying that a detector was ever used let alone registered explosives.

Re: Don't Fly During Ramadan

#275

Post by maxmcd » Thu, Aug 22, 2013, 6:54 PM UTC

tty wrote: post #128

maxmcd wrote: post #108

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No. There are far more efficient ways to flag people that fit a certain profile. They should have checked all of his belongings and let him go, and not focused at all on his "attitude". That allows for more checks of other suspicious people with the available time they wasted questioning this one person. The Boston bombers should also have been allowed to fly freely. Their actions had nothing to do with air travel. E…

>There are far more efficient ways to flag people that fit a certain profile. They should have checked all of his belongings and let him go, and not focused at all on his "attitude". Did you miss the part where the machines gave him a positive for explosives?

What the correlation between testing positive on one of those machines and bomb possession? How many common household chemicals test positive on one of those machines? Are we both fully informed enough on bomb detection to even have this conversation?

I'm going to assume that if they let him go eventually they could have let him go immediately (or soon) after checking all of his belongings.

Re: Don't Fly During Ramadan

#276

Post by tsax » Thu, Aug 22, 2013, 6:55 PM UTC

seehafer wrote: post #59

lukeqsee wrote: post #41

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I've heard the same arguments. Sadly, I have no good answer for how the TSA should do their job. However, treating someone rudely and, to an extent, inhumanly, doesn't fit the bill.

Israeli-style random questioning in all airports, conducted by highly-trained experts (not rent-a-cops), in conjunction with profiling.

Problem is affirmative action rentacops that the TSA has become. Israeli security personnel are highly trained, intelligent folks. The ethnic profile of such a TSA would be > 90% white. Cry racism, and there goes your competent force.

Re: Don't Fly During Ramadan

#277

Post by moubarak » Thu, Aug 22, 2013, 6:55 PM UTC

coldshot wrote: post #250

atmosx wrote: post #81

I'm European, I think I'll never go to the USA. They are just too aggressive/paranoid with security. Of course, I have no rights there.

Well, you are still kind of lucky. If you come from so-called "developing countries" or middle east don't even think about going to Europe or USA. The attitudes are almost the same besides US having better devices and more officers.

i'm form the middle east. i go to europe and USA often. although i was patted down twice in the US, one random check and the other for no apparent reason that i describe in another comment here (which was hilarious by the way), the worst experience was going to Netherlands, at the final check point the officer looked at my passport, asked me what i was coming for, and then gave me a disgusted look and handed me the passport back. That was really awful. I had so much fun there though the people were exceptionally welcoming. i would highly recommend middle easterners to travel as much as they can, safely of course.

Re: Don't Fly During Ramadan

#278

Post by sologoub » Thu, Aug 22, 2013, 6:55 PM UTC

Sounds like it's a good idea to invest in a good alarm system and video tape entrance. This way you'd at least know if they had entered without a warrant.

Camera would need to back-up to something remote though, and notify you quickly.

Re: Don't Fly During Ramadan

#279

Post by msrpotus » Thu, Aug 22, 2013, 6:56 PM UTC

amirmc wrote: post #131

angersock wrote: post #104

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I've a friend who spent a good deal of time recently in Khazakhstan, and she was very amused by my attempts to express my fears of the United States becoming an authoritarian police state. She laughed and said that no, I did not understand what it was to have secret police following you about and all these other sorts of issues. The distressing thing is that we've been putting so much machinery into place, and gotten…

> "She laughed and said that no, I did not understand what it was to have secret police following you about... " The thing is, they don't need to follow you around the same way as in the 'old days' because, like many things, modern technology makes it easier and more efficient. The tyranny of the future isn't going to be like that of the past. That makes it difficult to explain the dangers to people.

One of the scariest parts of this is that it seems like surveillance (if not censorship) is much more targeted. If you aren't the NSA's focus or on a TSA watch list, you might not know anything is going on. But if you are unlucky enough to trigger something, you might be visited with unimaginable torment like @chimeracoder was.

Re: Don't Fly During Ramadan

#280

Post by Zimahl » Thu, Aug 22, 2013, 6:56 PM UTC

toddmorey wrote: post #173

corresation wrote: post #72

It is a terrible ordeal, but for all of the other factors brought up the critical factor is that he set off an explosion detector (and clearly it doesn't get false positives often given the response they showed). Everything else (about Ramadan, being Hindi, the color of one's skin, etc) may be nothing more than decorations, and no one here knows what would happen if John Smith Anglosaxon set off the same detector in…

If events like Oklahoma City, Boston, and Sandy Hook have taught us anything, it's that terrorism doesn't have an ethnic profile. It's not only insulting, but also extremely unsafe to assume otherwise. I'm surprised and embarrassed by how representatives of my country treated him. I'm embarrassed by their cultural ignorance. There should at least be some better training. However, this should be a technology discussio…

First, Sandy Hook/Newtown wasn't terrorism. By definition it was not 'the use of violence and threats to intimidate or coerce, especially for political purposes.'[1]. It was more of a random spree killing. As for Boston, that's a terrible example because it was committed by Chechen Muslims.

Second, we don't know if there was a false positive. Maybe some cleaner or the bed bug spray do have legitimate bomb-making uses. There's a lot of conjecture in the story and even more in this comment thread.

[1] http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/terrorism?s=t