Kids can't use computers, and why it should worry you • Hacker News Board

Re: Kids can't use computers, and why it should worry you

#271

Post by altero » Fri, Aug 09, 2013, 7:53 PM UTC

simonsarris wrote: post #36

I get the feeling that the author was judging the person he was helping far more harshly than the perceived judgement she might have passed on him. Maybe she was tired, clearly she was frustrated, but it wasn't obvious that she held the author in any disdain, though the author seemed to perceive it. What we're sure of is that the author held her in such low regard. I wonder if she picked up on that. I suspect she did…

> negative stereotypes that the author wanted to rail against by mentioning all this.

> ‘Do you know where the proxy settings are?’ I asked, hopefully.

> Well for Christ's sake don't ask her something she almost surely doesn't know

Ehm, negative steretypes, ehm...

Re: Kids can't use computers, and why it should worry you

#272

Post by AndyKelley » Fri, Aug 09, 2013, 7:53 PM UTC

wvenable wrote: post #103

AndyKelley wrote: post #69

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You must not have read the article, because it explicitly mentions cars.

Yes, but he moved the goal-post when it comes to his car example. He's imagining a future where nobody knows how to drive. In the present, we already have people who can't maintain their own cars (and don't want to) just as we have people who can't maintain their own computers (and don't want to).

I agree - I was unsatisfied with his conclusion about cars. It seemed a good counterargument to bring up, but then he didn't resolve it.

Re: Kids can't use computers, and why it should worry you

#273

Post by drbawb » Fri, Aug 09, 2013, 7:55 PM UTC

skybrian wrote: post #215

thedufer wrote: post #202

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This analogy is pretty spot on. I don't know how to get rid of viruses, etc. But when people ask me to, I know how to google the problem. My experience with cars is basically identical - I didn't know how to change the brakes on my car, but I knew how to look up instructions and follow them. So much of "computer literacy" these days is typing things into google and following instructions. The fact that that is beyond…

I can follow instructions too but I wouldn't change the brakes on a car without supervision from someone who knows what they're doing. That's a safety-critical repair.

More or less this is the point of my reply -- cars are crossing into a threshold where life or death quite seriously hangs in the balance on some repairs.

It's not just the failure of the system itself I'm worried about though, the _process of making certain repairs_ could kill you in many fields, not just automobile repair.

Working on high-current electrical systems is dangerous, working with sprung weight can be dangerous, working with flammable vapors can be dangerous. Automobiles are one of the few examples, though, where you're _surrounded_ by many of these dangerous sub-systems while attempting a repair on something that's otherwise fairly harmless [brakes, changing a tire, checking fuel pressure, replacing a battery].

The interactions between such subsystems is where the danger lies -- and without the domain knowledge of an auto mechanic, you could easily be left unaware of the dangerous interactions between these subsystems.

Re: Kids can't use computers, and why it should worry you

#274

Post by B-Con » Fri, Aug 09, 2013, 7:56 PM UTC

> I watch him type in his user-name and password. A message box opens up, but the kid clicks OK so quickly that I don’t have time to read the message.

Computer sends message to user. User quickly dismisses it without thought. This evokes mixed feelings from me.

First, unfortunately, we have spent a long time training users that computers output cryptic messages that they don't need to understand. Anyone who used XP for more than 3 years is probably used to seeing odd pop-ups or error boxes from some application that's spitting out some message (possibly too often) that the user doesn't know. They're used to seeing things crash, and they're used to messages being too technical to be actionable. That is in part our (development) fault.

However, things are better now. If a message box pops up, you probably should read it. You should pay attention to what the computer says. I think that people so often just don't care what it is because they guess that it won't get in their way for their immediate task so they don't want to bother. Or, worse, they're afraid it will require some thought/energy (even if it's small) to understand and take appropriate action, and they're crossing their fingers and hoping that ignoring it is for the best.

Re: Kids can't use computers, and why it should worry you

#275

Post by chc » Fri, Aug 09, 2013, 7:56 PM UTC

angersock wrote: post #246

chc wrote: post #204

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Author is a jerk for the TLDR at the beginning > Sure--it's unfortunate that such a red herring was thrown into an otherwise excellent article. No, he comes across as a jerk for about 75% of the entire condescending article. "I'm better at this stuff than some people and thus these people are less than me" is the overriding theme here. There is a kernel of an excellent point here — that we would benefit from better…

First, he was coming at it from the position of being a fellow teacher, not designated IT-bro. Second, you dismiss the problems as things "nobody ever has"--guess what? Somebody had them. Third, he mostly listed examples where a cursory bout of reasoning or just a bit more experience in computers (gotten through doing something other than delegating to the mystical IT wizards) would've solved the problem. And no, he…

> First, he was coming at it from the position of being a fellow teacher, not designated IT-bro.

It's even less OK for teachers to take a condescending attitude than it is for normal people, so I'm not sure what your point is.

> Second, you dismiss the problems as things "nobody ever has"--guess what? Somebody had them.

Don't be obtuse. It is not conducive to good conversations.

> Third, he mostly listed examples where a cursory bout of reasoning or just a bit more experience in computers (gotten through doing something other than delegating to the mystical IT wizards) would've solved the problem.

Even people who have a lot of experience with computers will often not have had occasion to mess with their proxy settings. I have managed labs and offices with dozens of computers and the number of times I've needed to change the proxy settings on any machine is precisely zero. And I didn't know until pretty recently that some computers have a small, unlabeled switch that exists only to trick you into turning your Wi-Fi off on accident. That would have stumped me too, at least for a while. These are hardly fundamental failures of computer literacy.

> And no, he didn't say the kid was stupid or a numbskull--he said the kid didn't know how to use computers. Stop putting words into the dude's mouth.

Why? He has no problem putting words in people's mouths (e.g. "Fix my computer geek, and hurry up about it"). And unlike him, I at least have multiple people confirming that this was the impression he gave. My intent was to clarify why people are responding negatively to his tone — you seemed to think it was just the "TL;DR" portion, so I was explaining how the rest of his post sounds to many of us.

Re: Kids can't use computers, and why it should worry you

#276

Post by icebraining » Fri, Aug 09, 2013, 7:57 PM UTC

angersock wrote: post #133

nathas wrote: post #121

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I respectfully disagree. The fundamental idea here is that some people learn how to learn, and others need to always be taught. Learning "huh, when I hit this switch my wifi turns on or off" is pretty simple. Some people need to be told, and even then it's just a rote mechanical process - no thought as to why, how, or even that the switch is connected to anything. It's all magic. I wanted to learn to lift even though…

It's as if the scientific method never existed, life is magic, and knowledge can only be gained by truly extraordinary humans. That's exactly the problem with this. We get to support the idea that all humans are created equally and deserve the same rights and freedoms, or we get to have that mindset. It's a bad spot to be in.

There's no such dichotomy; the other choice is, supporting the idea that humans are not all created equally, but still consider they deserve the same rights and freedoms.

And I'd rather have a mass of idiots (which I don't think most people are) ruling than an elite of people who consider themselves superior to others. At least the former are less likely to successfully torment me for my own good.

Re: Kids can't use computers, and why it should worry you

#277

Post by __david__ » Fri, Aug 09, 2013, 7:59 PM UTC

GhotiFish wrote: post #158

"Without reference to Wikipedia, can you tell me what the difference is between The Internet, The World Wide Web, a web-browser and a search engine?" uh... well the last two are pretty easy, but... the first two. I actually don't know, I've used those two terms interchangably to be honest. I guess if I was pressed I'd say that the world wide web is what the colloquial internet actually is, and the internet is the pac…

The "world wide web" is the stuff you get from http. Simple as that. The internet would be the global network that lets you get your port 80 (http) packets from one place to another.

Re: Kids can't use computers, and why it should worry you

#278

Post by bfung » Fri, Aug 09, 2013, 7:59 PM UTC

angersock wrote: post #97

simonsarris wrote: post #36

I get the feeling that the author was judging the person he was helping far more harshly than the perceived judgement she might have passed on him. Maybe she was tired, clearly she was frustrated, but it wasn't obvious that she held the author in any disdain, though the author seemed to perceive it. What we're sure of is that the author held her in such low regard. I wonder if she picked up on that. I suspect she did…

The computer is a device that, most of the time, just gets in the way of doing X. I responded to this in somewhat more detail down below, but I'll be really blunt here: Their own fucking unwillingness to seek out knowledge and have the patience to learn to solve problems is what gets in the way of getting things done. And every IT person with bad manners or an unwillingness to teach whatever they know and answer ques…

I don't exactly agree with your sentiment, but picking on that statement is right.

  The computer is a device that, most of the time, just gets in the way of doing X.

But the OP of the quote misses a qualifier: the person is trying to do X on a computer! They can use paper and markers/crayons/pencil + xerox machine, not like PowerPoint is the only option.

Re: Kids can't use computers, and why it should worry you

#279

Post by mst » Fri, Aug 09, 2013, 8:00 PM UTC

jlgreco wrote: post #173

300bps wrote: post #132

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I get the feeling that the author was judging the person he was helping far more harshly than the perceived judgement she might have passed on him. There are certain professions that get brought problems constantly by people who think nothing of having you work for them for free. Doctors get this constantly at parties, at the grocery store, functions for their kids, etc. "Does this look like anything to you?" To a mu…

I use to experience this heavily . I've resorted to self-deprecating humor to tell them to buzz off without them feeling too insulted. "Oh wow, [Windows|OSX]? I don't know how this stuff works, I only work with little computers!" With my parents I feel less obliged to be polite so I generally just say something about not bothering a mechanical engineer with your car problems. The idea there is to emphasize that despi…

My version of this is "sorry, I'm a server side guy, normal people computers hate me too".

Re: Kids can't use computers, and why it should worry you

#280

Post by noonespecial » Fri, Aug 09, 2013, 8:01 PM UTC

Not only did he not really help by not politely showing her how to select a wifi network... "Here, this is easy watch, you get on wifi by..." (He's a teacher dammit. That's his freaking job), his idiotic network settings and bungling "proxy" just broke her computer for later when that proxy is stuck in there and she can't get on her network at home where there is no-one to help her set it back the way it was. How hard is a transparent proxy in 2013!?

He made everything worse and is now complaining about his victims.

TFA is like reading a "User Friendly" from 1998.