Kids can't use computers, and why it should worry you • Hacker News Board

Re: Kids can't use computers, and why it should worry you

#121

Post by nathas » Fri, Aug 09, 2013, 6:06 PM UTC

VMG wrote: post #58

otakucode wrote: post #26

The problem isn't that these people can't use computers. It's that they can't THINK. They do not understand what critical thinking is, or how it works. They do not know how to approach problems or explore solutions. They don't know how to do it with their computer... or their car, or their vacuuming robot, or their television, or their oven or their relationships or any thing in their life. They don't understand why…

> The problem isn't that these people can't use computers. It's that they can't THINK. How do you know? I presume that you believe that you have critical thinking skills and wouldn't make similar mistakes in other areas of life, but what is your evidence? You probably know how to use a computer, maybe even fix a car. But how can you know that you don't have similar blindspots when it comes to health, finance, relatio…

I respectfully disagree.

The fundamental idea here is that some people learn how to learn, and others need to always be taught.

Learning "huh, when I hit this switch my wifi turns on or off" is pretty simple. Some people need to be told, and even then it's just a rote mechanical process - no thought as to why, how, or even that the switch is connected to anything. It's all magic.

I wanted to learn to lift even though I've never stepped foot in a gym. I did my research and bought the right books. I went into a gym and did exactly what I set out to do.

I need to replace my windshield wipers. I look up the information for it - it's right next to the new blades in Walmart. Dead simple. I bet a lot of people go to Pepboys for that.

It's as if the scientific method never existed, life is magic, and knowledge can only be gained by truly extraordinary humans.

Re: Kids can't use computers, and why it should worry you

#122

Post by rhizome » Fri, Aug 09, 2013, 6:06 PM UTC

brandon272 wrote: post #64

I found that the author came across as extraordinarily condescending with the whole "let's get the president on the phone" thing. I'm sure that the woman he was dealing with understood full well that the "Internet" itself was probably fine and that it was her configuration that was the problem. Though I guess he took the holier-than-thou approach because she didn't use the precise terminology that he would have prefe…

Nick Burns: http://vimeo.com/24762526

Re: Kids can't use computers, and why it should worry you

#123

Post by wavesounds » Fri, Aug 09, 2013, 6:07 PM UTC

The problem is people are ok or are even proud of not knowing how their stuff works, even the author isn't ashamed that he has to ask a salesmen what car to buy. People in Africa can take apart your car and put it back together, people in India can become experts in computing from a computer stuck in a wall[1].

Rich lazy first world humans are proud of the fact that they have advanced technology they don't need to understand, its a sign of luxury and 'success' like new clothes you just throw away as fashion changes.

1.http://www.ted.com/talks/sugata_mitra_the_child_driven_educa...

Re: Kids can't use computers, and why it should worry you

#124

Post by fantnn » Fri, Aug 09, 2013, 6:07 PM UTC

angersock wrote: post #101

fantnn wrote: post #46

Earlier quoted context omitted.

He's right though this article is complete garbage, having a blog does not automatically validate your opinion. All people can be inspired to learn in some way, and this guy is a teacher, wtf.

I've written several paragraphs elsewhere in this thread explaining my feelings on the article and on other comments--try to hold yourself to a higher standard than merely saying "other guy is right article is bad" without backing up your points. Having commenting privileges on a forum does not automatically validate your opinion--at least give us a stacktrace.

The fact that you think that verbal regurgitation of pedantic bullshit is more of a response than my "this guy is a teacher, wtf" response is probably the same reason this guy felt able to judge someone who had trouble with her computer when he couldn't configure a proxy on a Mac. You calling content filtering on a school network draconian is also ridiculous, this article blows.

Re: Kids can't use computers, and why it should worry you

#125

Post by angersock » Fri, Aug 09, 2013, 6:07 PM UTC

brandon272 wrote: post #64

I found that the author came across as extraordinarily condescending with the whole "let's get the president on the phone" thing. I'm sure that the woman he was dealing with understood full well that the "Internet" itself was probably fine and that it was her configuration that was the problem. Though I guess he took the holier-than-thou approach because she didn't use the precise terminology that he would have prefe…

The author wasn't even an IT bro--he was a stand-in whose real job was teaching.

This all said, would you expect that a doctor would have patience with somebody who insisted "My body hurts" without being willing to provide more detail?

Terminology matters, and those who think it does not are doomed to be taken advantage of by people with more nuanced ways of reasoning about the world.

Re: Kids can't use computers, and why it should worry you

#126

Post by scott_karana » Fri, Aug 09, 2013, 6:07 PM UTC

venomsnake wrote: post #18

ethanbond wrote: post #2

So I take it the author can fix any brand of car and would, without missing a beat, answer questions like "where's the expansion tank?" I'm so tired of "tech savvy" people simultaneously sitting on their high chairs and large salaries dissuading anything that makes their trade less esoteric - and then talking down to those who can't pierce the veil for whatever reason (whether it by financial, intellectual, or just n…

If it does not have ECU or diesel pump I could fix pretty much everything else and bring the car in movable condition. You just need to obtain some manuals and a screwdriver. And I am not car enthusiast. The problem is that the computing devices are moving to be the center of people lives. You must know how something works just to be able to protect yourself.

Just a screwdriver? That's a bit of a simplification. Even excluding electronic components, you'd need a fair bit of skill (and machinery) to rebuild a VANOS system, install fresh synchros in a transmission, blueprint an engine...

Re: Kids can't use computers, and why it should worry you

#127

Post by wvenable » Fri, Aug 09, 2013, 6:08 PM UTC

aristidb wrote: post #60

Even the most savvy computer user will make stupid mistakes... For example I once wondered why my display didn't work when I had apparently accidentally hit the "Input Source" button so the display was no longer set to DVI and didn't know how to get it to work... I guess I "can't use a computer" in the author's mind?

I assume you eventually fixed it yourself. So therefore you can use a computer.

This is not about stupid mistakes.

Re: Kids can't use computers, and why it should worry you

#128

Post by Morphling » Fri, Aug 09, 2013, 6:08 PM UTC

simonsarris wrote: post #36

I get the feeling that the author was judging the person he was helping far more harshly than the perceived judgement she might have passed on him. Maybe she was tired, clearly she was frustrated, but it wasn't obvious that she held the author in any disdain, though the author seemed to perceive it. What we're sure of is that the author held her in such low regard. I wonder if she picked up on that. I suspect she did…

I get your point and I usually try to gage the techincal level of the person I'm helping and how interested they are in learning new stuff and explain/fix accordingly, but the author still has a point, way too many people these days have no idea how to do anything on a computer and the situation only gets worse when parents try to tell the world that their kids are "tech natives" when in fact they know nothing more than how some socialnetwork's UI works.

For example I graduate couple years ago from basic computer science vocational institution where we learned how computer hardware works, how to install a new OS and basics of web developement (PHP & MySQL), but now all of my former class mates contact me for tech help through skype even though they should all be "IT literate", but it was just a degree with for most of them, something to waste couple years on to figure out what they wanted to do.

Now I'm studying a computer science engineering degree and easily 1/3 of my class mates have no idea how to code or even how to use basic HTML and CSS tags and we've been at it for 2 years now, sure they are passing "Java 101", but if you gave them a task to write a piece of software most would just raise their hand in air and state "I can't do that" without even giving it a go and I know this I've been trying to recruit new blood to tech club where we write simple apps for Android phones for fun, experience and credit.

Re: Kids can't use computers, and why it should worry you

#129

Post by notahacker » Fri, Aug 09, 2013, 6:09 PM UTC

blakestein wrote: post #92

ender7 wrote: post #61

Earlier quoted context omitted.

To extend your car analogy, I wonder if the author knows how to fix his own car? I certainly don't. I know it involves pistons and carburetors and...tubes.

The difference I see here is I don't think there's some sort of prevailing idea that young people all know how to fix their cars, like there is that they know how to use a computer.

I see it as the opposite: there's no prevailing idea amongst mechanics that inexperienced drivers who rely on assistance to diagnose and fix simple engine faults are incapable of using the road

Re: Kids can't use computers, and why it should worry you

#130

Post by arkades » Fri, Aug 09, 2013, 6:10 PM UTC

altcognito wrote: post #67

arkades wrote: post #54

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Amusingly enough, in Russian there's an expression (with a certain nuance) "You have to know everything." It's simple: life is vast, complicated, and you will be fucked in every possible direction you are ignorant of. You have to know everything . Cutting off a piece of reality and saying "that's for technicians" is for schmucks.

Yeah, but it is a really inefficient way to run a society. Time I waste figuring out why my corporate overlord's choice of email client isn't working with the server when I have little knowledge of the backend infrastructure is time wasted for the company.

It's not about how to run a society, or a corporation.

It's about how to live your life.

All snark aside, I'm really, really sad that there's someone on the other end of this communication that immediately thinks only of how to optimize how well they fit into someone's machine.