Kids can't use computers, and why it should worry you • Hacker News Board

Re: Kids can't use computers, and why it should worry you

#201

Post by glhaynes » Fri, Aug 09, 2013, 6:55 PM UTC

jlgreco wrote: post #190

glhaynes wrote: post #179

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I suppose we have different perspectives on what the general public is capable of. Who's talking about capability? I'm sure the vast majority of people are capable of it. Likewise, I'm sure you're capable of performing lots of the services you pay for. Nevertheless, we all decide differently which things we want to do ourselves and which things we like specialists to do for us.

Who isn't talking about capability? The claim was "Everyone should learn how to change the oil in their car, though." , not "Everyone should change the oil in their car, though." The inability to change your oil is frightening on the same level as the inability to connect yourself to wifi. I don't give a shit if you get your oil changed at the shop, or if your work computer automagically connects to corporate wifi ou…

I just don't at all understand why you're frightened of me not knowing how to do something that I'm not interested in, almost surely never will have to do, and can always easily learn if either of these situations changes.

You learn the things you're interested in, the rest of us will each learn the things we're interested in.

You can be frightened about that, but it's frankly overbearing.

Re: Kids can't use computers, and why it should worry you

#202

Post by thedufer » Fri, Aug 09, 2013, 6:56 PM UTC

ender7 wrote: post #61

simonsarris wrote: post #36

I get the feeling that the author was judging the person he was helping far more harshly than the perceived judgement she might have passed on him. Maybe she was tired, clearly she was frustrated, but it wasn't obvious that she held the author in any disdain, though the author seemed to perceive it. What we're sure of is that the author held her in such low regard. I wonder if she picked up on that. I suspect she did…

To extend your car analogy, I wonder if the author knows how to fix his own car? I certainly don't. I know it involves pistons and carburetors and...tubes.

This analogy is pretty spot on. I don't know how to get rid of viruses, etc. But when people ask me to, I know how to google the problem. My experience with cars is basically identical - I didn't know how to change the brakes on my car, but I knew how to look up instructions and follow them.

So much of "computer literacy" these days is typing things into google and following instructions. The fact that that is beyond so many people is frightening, honestly.

Re: Kids can't use computers, and why it should worry you

#203

Post by ctdonath » Fri, Aug 09, 2013, 6:57 PM UTC

dragonwriter wrote: post #163

Ziomislaw wrote: post #142

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I heard a simmilar version "Specialization is for insects".

A human being should be able to change a diaper, plan an invasion, butcher a hog, conn a ship, design a building, write a sonnet, balance accounts, build a wall, set a bone, comfort the dying, take orders, give orders, cooperate, act alone, solve equations, analyze a new problem, pitch manure, program a computer, cook a tasty meal, fight efficiently, die gallantly. Specialization is for insects. (Lazarus Long, in Tim…

Researching discussions of that quote, I was amazed at how many people think the sentiment is completely unattainable, and honestly view achieving just 2-3 of those points is a major achievement.

To the contrary, I do expect myself and others capable of doing anything (including learning how as needed). I do expect the average joe to know how to unblock an occluded pipe; I'll understand if said Joe chooses to hire someone else to do the job faster, cheaper, and as leverage to free up time for greater personal productivity...nonetheless, I expect Joe can if need be grab a monkey-wrench and a bucket and proceed to unblock that pipe somehow.

I'll admit I may not be able to do all of those things well, but dad gum I'll get 'em done. I'll also admit "comfort the dying" is by far the hardest.

Re: Kids can't use computers, and why it should worry you

#204

Post by chc » Fri, Aug 09, 2013, 6:57 PM UTC

angersock wrote: post #86

So, here's some different themes in the thread so far, some ideas spawned from the article, and thoughts on them: Author is a jerk for the TLDR at the beginning Sure--it's unfortunate that such a red herring was thrown into an otherwise excellent article. Normal people shouldn't have to learn how to into computer. This is unreasonable. "People don't want to learn how to computer, they want to learn how to get X done"…

> Author is a jerk for the TLDR at the beginning

> Sure--it's unfortunate that such a red herring was thrown into an otherwise excellent article.

No, he comes across as a jerk for about 75% of the entire condescending article. "I'm better at this stuff than some people and thus these people are less than me" is the overriding theme here. There is a kernel of an excellent point here — that we would benefit from better teaching computer literacy — but it's buried under miles of condescension, dismissiveness and outright animosity.

Many of his "This person can't use a computer" statements are overly dismissive and imperious. "This stupid kid saw a dialog box saying he had a virus and thought it might mean he had a virus! What a numbskull!" "A teacher doesn't know off the top of her head how to set some stuff that nobody ever needs to set! How embarrassing!" It is no wonder that his point gets lost when he goes on for paragraph after paragraph deriding people and impugning their character for such silly reasons.

If you want greater computer literacy, my experience is that one of the first steps is making people feel comfortable working their way around their computers. This "h4h4 n00b" attitude is counterproductive.

Re: Kids can't use computers, and why it should worry you

#205

Post by jroseattle » Fri, Aug 09, 2013, 6:57 PM UTC

This just sounds like the rantings of a disgruntled "computer guy" (sorry for the gender bias). The suggestion here is that the ability of users to handle their own inane tasks EQUALS the ability to use a computer. Nothing could be further from the truth.

FWIW, my kids can use their computers quite ably. They use the command line, they know the difference between wireless vs. physical connections, and they know their file system. And, wouldn't you know it -- sometimes they still ask inane questions for help.

Reading some of the comments, it's apparent the author takes his teaching seriously. I hope it comes through as teaching, and not as disdain for the future.

Re: Kids can't use computers, and why it should worry you

#206

Post by tjr » Fri, Aug 09, 2013, 6:58 PM UTC

agentultra wrote: post #148

300bps wrote: post #89

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The problem isn't that these people can't use computers. It's that they can't THINK. I find it's more specific than and not as serious as that. I got my first computer in 1982, first modem in 1985 (hence my username). I find that people who proudly state how not-technical they are actually purposely turn their brain off around computers. It's not that they can't think. They can and often do around non-technical thing…

Some people are vehemently proud of their limited technical experience. You can't even convince them that they should learn more so that they can solve their own problems. It's a hopeless argument to have with one of these people. They will only change their minds if they can convince themselves that it's important. Most people remain ignorant of the value of such skills. When there's cheap access to skilled labour t…

My home air conditioner stopped working a couple of weeks ago. I turned it off and on, but that was about the extent of what I felt I could intelligently do. I called a technician, who spent 15 minutes or less in my basement diagnosing the problem and replacing a capacitor. He charged me $115 to replace a $17 capacitor.

I'm not complaining. I called him, I wrote the check, and I have a functioning air conditioner again. But it did make me wonder if I couldn't take a $115 class at the community college to learn air conditioner repair. (And I imagine I could get the capacitor for less than $17 too.)

Re: Kids can't use computers, and why it should worry you

#207

Post by grapeshot » Fri, Aug 09, 2013, 6:59 PM UTC

demallien wrote: post #147

300bps wrote: post #89

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The problem isn't that these people can't use computers. It's that they can't THINK. I find it's more specific than and not as serious as that. I got my first computer in 1982, first modem in 1985 (hence my username). I find that people who proudly state how not-technical they are actually purposely turn their brain off around computers. It's not that they can't think. They can and often do around non-technical thing…

Hmmm, it's an interesting point. I think the reason people don't even try is because they recognize that they can't tell the difference between something that might take them 15 minutes of monkeying around to fix, and something that is beyond their competency. Worse, they are not sure that they won't make things when trying to fix the problem. I'm sure it must be similar to the feeling I get when I'm working on a new…

I think part of the problem is that with the advent of the Internet, no computer comes with proper documentation that you can read to learn what a system does and how it does it. DOS was probably the last OS that could be completely described in its paper manual. Now learning about a new system has to be done through Google, experimentation and thoroughly inadequate help systems where it's very difficult to find an answer if you don't know how to describe the problem.

Re: Kids can't use computers, and why it should worry you

#208

Post by jaynos » Fri, Aug 09, 2013, 6:59 PM UTC

300bps wrote: post #89

otakucode wrote: post #26

The problem isn't that these people can't use computers. It's that they can't THINK. They do not understand what critical thinking is, or how it works. They do not know how to approach problems or explore solutions. They don't know how to do it with their computer... or their car, or their vacuuming robot, or their television, or their oven or their relationships or any thing in their life. They don't understand why…

The problem isn't that these people can't use computers. It's that they can't THINK. I find it's more specific than and not as serious as that. I got my first computer in 1982, first modem in 1985 (hence my username). I find that people who proudly state how not-technical they are actually purposely turn their brain off around computers. It's not that they can't think. They can and often do around non-technical thing…

> Only my computer teacher was in his first year of teaching computers, having been drafted from the math program because "computers use math". He was completely just learning about computers.

Same here. My senior year independent study in programming was converting all the C++ projects and notes to Java because the AP exam was switching over. I think the idea was that the next year instead of helping she could say "look at what it should look like" or "well, this version here works".

Re: Kids can't use computers, and why it should worry you

#209

Post by daraul » Fri, Aug 09, 2013, 6:59 PM UTC

simonsarris wrote: post #36

I get the feeling that the author was judging the person he was helping far more harshly than the perceived judgement she might have passed on him. Maybe she was tired, clearly she was frustrated, but it wasn't obvious that she held the author in any disdain, though the author seemed to perceive it. What we're sure of is that the author held her in such low regard. I wonder if she picked up on that. I suspect she did…

The car analogy falls apart though, when you consider the complexity of the tasks that he's complaining about.

We would rightly laugh at anyone who complained that their car wouldn't 'turn on' when they jammed their key into the gap between the ignition and the steering column, or because the car was out of fuel. We'd laugh if they complained that they can't see at night because they didn't turn the lights on, and needed reminders every time they drove at night to find the light switch.

We'd laugh at someone who burned the car's engine and transmission up because they stomped on the gas pedal while the car was in park, because "when I press it the car usually goes forward but this time it didn't." Repeat, so on and so forth with every 'common' function in a car.

The problem is that people aren't learning about these basic functions that are required in day-to-day operation of a computer, like they do with a car. The wifi is a good example: Someone who owns a laptop should have a cursory familiarity with the wireless networking functionality and be able to find and connect to networks, because a laptop is made to be portable and will therefore be expected to use unfamiliar networks. Granted, the proxy settings are somewhat more forgivable as that's a non-standard setting, but it still doesn't excuse the person's total inability to find the network.

And the main point of the article stands as a rebuttal of the truism "Kids are better at computers", because they significantly aren't. They're only slightly less clueless than their parents.

Re: Kids can't use computers, and why it should worry you

#210

Post by ChuckMcM » Fri, Aug 09, 2013, 7:01 PM UTC

Interesting comments. I got that this guy was burned out. I know that feeling, how many times can someone say "The Internet it down" and you have told them the steps to identify what is the problem and often fix it?

I really applauded Microsofts work on "Trouble Shooters" which would walk you through those steps. Each one saying "Is it better now?" and if you got to the end it would send a report to Microsoft.

More importantly the message though is that a large number of people use "computers" when what they wanted were "appliances." Specifically it always does what its job. No programability required. This is what makes the Chromebook and things like it so powerful for those people. Turn it on it works, if not you get a new one.

The dissonance of people who use a software tool, and that forces them to use a computer to run it, versus the people who use a computer that has a number of different software tools is getting stronger.