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NSA director heckled on stage at Black Hat security conference

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Re: NSA director heckled on stage at Black Hat security conference

#131

Post by northwest »

joering2 wrote: post #91
northwest wrote: post #4

> “No, I’m saying I don’t trust you!” shouted McCoy. I believe that's pretty central here. I don't see how we can ever be able again to trust an organism such as the NSA - or even the government. Transparency is the only solution here. Will we get it? If we don't, the only other solution would be to cut budgets so drastically that such an enterprise will simply not be possible financially, anymore. And maybe, as a ge…

> I believe that's pretty central here. I don't see how we can ever be able again to trust an organism such as the NSA - or even the government. We won't. This cancer is a one-way street. It will kill the organism and kill itself with it. And they know it. That's why they buy billions of ammunition rounds and dispatch lightweight tanks throught the states borders. They know that history repeat itself and they don't w…

> That's why they buy billions of ammunition rounds and dispatch lightweight tanks throught the states borders.

I didn't know this, but I was thinking along the same lines when I read about the "anti-missile blimps" being deployed over DC. I mean it's as if they "prepared for what's coming".

So you seem to think that there is actually no real solution apart from letting things fall apart and then "start from scratch"?

I'd be really interested to hear what other people see as potential solutions for all this.

Re: NSA director heckled on stage at Black Hat security conference

#132

Post by lurchpop »

narrator wrote: post #125
willholloway wrote: post #80

Earlier quoted context omitted.

My main take away from your comment is that Keith Alexander is Enabran Tain & that I feel like the US is approximating the Cardassian Union more everyday. The existence of nuclear weapons has rendered traditional warfare unprofitable, except against the very weak, and even in those cases only military contractors benefit. We invaded and occupied Iraq and didn't even get any oil, just a trillion or so in national debt…

>We invaded and occupied Iraq and didn't even get any oil, just a trillion or so in national debt. At least in the time of Rome citizen soldiers were titled large swaths of land in the conquered territories. The trillions in national debt benefits somebody. Somebody somewhere gets those interest payments and they wouldn't have if the U.S had not borrowed from them.

...and the point wasn't to "get the oil" necessarily, but to take control of it so Hussein wouldn't flood the market and make the price go down.

Re: NSA director heckled on stage at Black Hat security conference

#133

Post by cookiecaper »

vijayboyapati wrote: post #99

Funny how Alexander says he's read the Constitution, and implores the heckler to do the same. If one can read the Constitution and square the NSA's mass surveillance with the 4th amendment then one can square a circle. There really is no point in debating people like this on the technicalities of the Constitution. What they understand is power. He has it and we don't. He knows how to pull the levers that matter, and…

The NSA is filtering a public utility. The users of this utility choose what information they want to broadcast, and should do so with the full knowledge that this information is being bounced between dozens of routers every time it goes out, any one of which may be monitored by its owners. This information ultimately ends up at the destination IP address, whose owner is able to use this data in whichever manner he sees fit, including submittal of said data to a major governmental intelligence organization as occurs with PRISM.

The problem is that people foolishly assume that the plaintext packets they send online are private by default. As in real life, good privacy can only be assured by significant effort on the part of the communicants. Is it evil to observe something occurring on a public street corner? It is not different to observe something occuring on a public IP router.

Re: NSA director heckled on stage at Black Hat security conference

#134

Post by methehack »

cracell wrote: post #38
methehack wrote: post #28

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> there are more courteous and productive ways to express yourself than yelling "bullshit". I disagree. When chatting with Faust, I think it's better to avoid the drawn out conversation and just tell him to fuck off. This Alexander guy is a liar and a felon (lying under oath to congress) and has earned our collective disrespect. He deserves a lot more than "bullshit!" He's a domestic terrorist that's infiltrated the…

What has he done that makes him a terrorist? Or are you just inferring that mass spying is a form of terrorism?

It was kind of a flip thing to say; I was on a bit of a roll.

The argument, such as it is, would go something like this: Instead of physical terror, the policies Alexander pursues create a psychological terror that jeopardizes "our way of life". Instead of a fear of being blown up, we have a fear of persecution for what we say.

A terrorist thinks he is beyond the law and uses his limited power to create fear in a population in order to achieve his ends, which the majority does not support. That's a description that seems to apply to Alexander.

I know he's different, but he's definitely not as different as he thinks.

Re: NSA director heckled on stage at Black Hat security conference

#135

Post by talmand »

lukifer wrote: post #113
vijayboyapati wrote: post #99

Funny how Alexander says he's read the Constitution, and implores the heckler to do the same. If one can read the Constitution and square the NSA's mass surveillance with the 4th amendment then one can square a circle. There really is no point in debating people like this on the technicalities of the Constitution. What they understand is power. He has it and we don't. He knows how to pull the levers that matter, and…

My understanding is that their Constitutional dodge is rooted in Scalia's originalism: the 4th says "papers", which means specifically physical pieces of paper, not phone calls or emails. What I've been wondering about though, is the legal definition of "effects" (noun, not verb). That term seems very broad to me, and should include emails, but I'm not a lawyer.

They don't need a dodge, they just ignore the law or get new laws that circumvent previous laws. With little or no oversight this is easily accomplished. Especially since the group that requires oversight is gathering information and information is power.

This is nothing new, read up on J. Edgar Hoover with his wiretapping and files on almost everybody. Sometimes with White House knowledge and approval, sometimes without. All this while completely ignoring that quaint document down the street called the Constitution. Doing things like that is easy if you can hand over a note to someone that starts out "It'd be a shame if people found out about [insert criminal/embarrassing act here]." Information is power.

Re: NSA director heckled on stage at Black Hat security conference

#136

Post by talmand »

mjfl wrote: post #102
moxie wrote: post #36

Earlier quoted context omitted.

General Alexander doesn't have to act rude when he has the power of the NSA behind him. The only power we have in a situation like that is to be disruptive and to be rude. Why should we treat him with respect given all the disrespectful things that he's instrumental in? Those in power keep trying to present this as a "conversation" or a "dialog," but that's absolute bullshit. They're not actually trying to have a con…

How about civil disobedience rather than childish disobedience?

How well would it turn out for people to conduct in civil disobedience against a group that has clearly shown to have little respect for due process and civil rights?

Re: NSA director heckled on stage at Black Hat security conference

#137

Post by ferdo »

podperson wrote: post #72
ferdo wrote: post #25

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Shouting "bullshit" might nudge a couple of people out of their slumber. If Joseph Welch had been "polite" to Joe McCarthy instead of talking to him like the opportunist that he was, McCarthy would have stayed in business.

In what way was Joseph Welch impolite? McCarthy was horribly rude, Welch patiently waited for his turn and spoke simply and eloquently. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Po5GlFba5Yg

This isn't politeness on Welch's part. This is how every member of the upper tiers of the MIC should be treated by the entire country:

"Until this moment, Senator, I think I have never really gauged your cruelty or your recklessness...Little did I dream you could be so reckless and so cruel as to do an injury to that lad...It is, I regret to say, equally true that I fear he shall always bear a scar needlessly inflicted by you. If it were in my power to forgive you for your reckless cruelty I would do so. I like to think I am a gentle man but your forgiveness will have to come from someone other than me."

When McCarthy tried to renew his attack, Welch interrupted him:

"Senator, may we not drop this? We know he belonged to the Lawyers Guild. Let us not assassinate this lad further, Senator. You've done enough. Have you no sense of decency, sir? At long last, have you left no sense of decency?"

McCarthy tried to ask Welch another question about Fisher, and Welch cut him off:

"Mr. McCarthy, I will not discuss this further with you. You have sat within six feet of me and could have asked me about Fred Fisher. You have seen fit to bring it out. And if there is a God in Heaven it will do neither you nor your cause any good. I will not discuss it further. I will not ask Mr. Cohn any more questions. You, Mr. Chairman, may, if you will, call the next witness."

> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Joseph_N._Welch#Army.E2.80.93Mc...

Re: NSA director heckled on stage at Black Hat security conference

#138

Post by foobarqux »

lurchpop wrote: post #132
narrator wrote: post #125

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>We invaded and occupied Iraq and didn't even get any oil, just a trillion or so in national debt. At least in the time of Rome citizen soldiers were titled large swaths of land in the conquered territories. The trillions in national debt benefits somebody. Somebody somewhere gets those interest payments and they wouldn't have if the U.S had not borrowed from them.

...and the point wasn't to "get the oil" necessarily, but to take control of it so Hussein wouldn't flood the market and make the price go down .

Control of the oil in Iraq is more strategically important than in the one scenario you describe.

As an aside I never read that Hussein had threatened to flood the market, I read that he threatened, as a negotiating tactic, to withhold oil. Do you have a source for the "flooding the market" claim?

Re: NSA director heckled on stage at Black Hat security conference

#139

Post by fragsworth »

pyrocat wrote: post #109
fragsworth wrote: post #89

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> What's missing are leaders (aka media) evaluating and promoting policies based on rationality reasoning rather than what emotional ploys that sell. Leaders in media have no external incentive to promote rationality. They make money by appealing to their audience, to increase the size and loyalty of that audience. There is no solution.

Don't make the news beholden to ratings.

But isn't that like telling people not to make money?

Re: NSA director heckled on stage at Black Hat security conference

#140

Post by foobarqux »

moxie wrote: post #110
tptacek wrote: post #43

Earlier quoted context omitted.

NSA recruits from engineering universities. They are quite good at it. The idea that he needs to troll Black Hat for talent dignifies the audience at Black Hat and misses the truth of what was happening there.

I speak at one of those universities almost every year, primarily so that I can talk in opposition to the NSA recruiter who is always there giving a talk at the same time. Those young people look strongly to the culture defined in large part by conferences like Defcon and BlackHat in order to make their choices. For many of them, the trip to LV is the highlight of their year. If the culture of those events changes to…

> I speak at one of those universities almost every year, primarily so that I can talk in opposition to the NSA recruiter who is always there giving a talk at the same time.

Wow. That's really above and beyond the call of duty. Thanks for being one of the good guys. Sometimes it doesn't feel like there are any left.

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