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NSA director heckled on stage at Black Hat security conference

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Re: NSA director heckled on stage at Black Hat security conference

#101

Post by mtgx »

sriramk wrote: post #94
tptacek wrote: post #14

This entire event was a staged press op. Keith Alexander is a ~30 year veteran of SIGINT, electronic warfare, and intelligence, and a Four-Star US Army General --- which is a bigger deal than you probably think it is. He's a spy chief in the truest sense and a master politician. Anyone who thinks he walked into that conference hall in Caesars without a near perfect forecast of the outcome of the speech is kidding the…

I was just about to get on this thread and post about how reasonable and measured his response was. Your comment is one of the better ones I've read on this whole topic.

How can you still believe that guy anymore? He could be petting bunnies, while he sings with an angel's voice about how they're protecting the nation and that their spying is really not that bad - and I wouldn't believe him.

Obama's promises sounded very compelling and believable, too - until we learned the facts of his actions after he already won his 2nd mandate. I think it's important to remember that whenever you hear a politician speaking nicely without anything real to back it up. Otherwise we'd doomed to repeat the same mistakes, over and over and over again, fooled by master actors.

Re: NSA director heckled on stage at Black Hat security conference

#102

Post by mjfl »

moxie wrote: post #36
mjfl wrote: post #16

I don't care whether the director of the NSA is a bad guy, it just makes you look bad if you heckle someone on stage. There are probably few more scrutinizing audiences for the director of the NSA than a professional security conference. I would rather have him say what he has to say and be analysed by the many bright minds at the conference than for him to be childishly interrupted and waste time that could be spent…

General Alexander doesn't have to act rude when he has the power of the NSA behind him. The only power we have in a situation like that is to be disruptive and to be rude. Why should we treat him with respect given all the disrespectful things that he's instrumental in? Those in power keep trying to present this as a "conversation" or a "dialog," but that's absolute bullshit. They're not actually trying to have a con…

How about civil disobedience rather than childish disobedience?

Re: NSA director heckled on stage at Black Hat security conference

#103

Post by fixxer »

tptacek wrote: post #14

This entire event was a staged press op. Keith Alexander is a ~30 year veteran of SIGINT, electronic warfare, and intelligence, and a Four-Star US Army General --- which is a bigger deal than you probably think it is. He's a spy chief in the truest sense and a master politician. Anyone who thinks he walked into that conference hall in Caesars without a near perfect forecast of the outcome of the speech is kidding the…

I agree with the basic argument that Alexander is a savvy SOB and knew what he was in for...

BUT, you're making it sound like getting heckled on stage was desirable. I don't agree. I think it is more appropriate to say that the NSA is between a rock and a hard place. They could either...

* Get heckled and look culpable, but maintain the illusion that they give a shit what the general public thinks, or...

* Not attend and completely look like assholes hell bent on violating civil liberties.

Keith Alexander didn't win any friends by getting heckled. He just made fewer enemies.

Re: NSA director heckled on stage at Black Hat security conference

#104

Post by moxie »

tptacek wrote: post #83
mikegagnon wrote: post #68

Earlier quoted context omitted.

A half hour before the keynote Moxie encouraged attendees to disrupt the talk https://twitter.com/moxie/status/362596265034399746 "Ubiquitous surveillance prevents millions from speaking freely. BlackHat keynote attendees, let's not let Gen. Alexander speak freely today." I anticipated the protest to be effective, since black-hat hackers have somewhat of a culture of booing presenters who they morally object to. See…

I think Moxie Marlinspike truly and deeply cares about these issues, isn't an outrage tourist, and has done more for online privacy than I probably ever will. I think he truly believed that attempting to disrupt the talk could be an effective strategy. But I also think he was wrong about this.

I'm actually less interested in our external perception than in how we see ourselves. I think the value of being disruptive isn't necessarily to show the world anything, but to define ourselves as a community with a cultural narrative that is unsympathetic to government surveillance.

If that's the narrative we want to create, then I think we need to take every opportunity we can to inject whatever cultural influence we can, because keynotes like this are the NSA's effort to do the opposite. I agree that one or two people heckling doesn't mean much, but I appreciate the bravery of the people that were disruptive, and I only wish that everyone there critical of Gen Alexander had contributed to an enormous chorus of boos and forced him off the stage.

In the end, at the very least the title of this story is "NSA director heckled on stage at Black Hat security conference" rather than "NSA director universally applauded by Black Hat security conference."

Re: NSA director heckled on stage at Black Hat security conference

#106

Post by northwest »

IanDrake wrote: post #79

>the four-star general presented a timeline of terrorist attacks around the world, from the 1993 World Trade Center bombing to the Boston Marathon attack . Can anyone speak as to why, with the NSA's systems, they were not able to thwart an attack by the ass clowns in Boston? Russia even warned us about them and they made frequent contact with foreigners. I'm sorry, but that terrorist event seems like low hanging frui…

The question is: Did they want to thwart the attack?

One obvious possibility is that the system that has been erected simply needs fear to be able to continue to exist.

Let some attacks happen (and some Taliban prisons break) from time to time and people can be and will be manipulated via fear, so the powerful stay powerful and the rich become richer. Same old, same old...

Next stop: Middle Class Gone.

Then, people will have nothing to lose again and wake up. Next, we'll have riots and one day, the old system is dead and history will repeat itself once more. So much for the long term.

Re: NSA director heckled on stage at Black Hat security conference

#107

Post by moxie »

mjfl wrote: post #102
moxie wrote: post #36

Earlier quoted context omitted.

General Alexander doesn't have to act rude when he has the power of the NSA behind him. The only power we have in a situation like that is to be disruptive and to be rude. Why should we treat him with respect given all the disrespectful things that he's instrumental in? Those in power keep trying to present this as a "conversation" or a "dialog," but that's absolute bullshit. They're not actually trying to have a con…

How about civil disobedience rather than childish disobedience?

We shouldn't be criticizing the heckler for not being a good enough or different enough heckler, we should be criticizing everyone else who did nothing at all.

Re: NSA director heckled on stage at Black Hat security conference

#108

Post by snowwrestler »

moxie wrote: post #36
mjfl wrote: post #16

I don't care whether the director of the NSA is a bad guy, it just makes you look bad if you heckle someone on stage. There are probably few more scrutinizing audiences for the director of the NSA than a professional security conference. I would rather have him say what he has to say and be analysed by the many bright minds at the conference than for him to be childishly interrupted and waste time that could be spent…

General Alexander doesn't have to act rude when he has the power of the NSA behind him. The only power we have in a situation like that is to be disruptive and to be rude. Why should we treat him with respect given all the disrespectful things that he's instrumental in? Those in power keep trying to present this as a "conversation" or a "dialog," but that's absolute bullshit. They're not actually trying to have a con…

The problem with being disruptive and rude is that it is generally unpopular in America. So in the battle for "hearts and minds" (i.e. for positive press coverage), the intended message can become tainted by the delivery.

Here's one alternative idea: If you can organize enough people for it to look good on camera, a coordinated walk-out could be effective. Tip off a few key press folks in advance, so they know to shoot B roll of people walking out. Then you hold a short press avail in the hall outside the ballroom, delivering a statement with all the people who walked out massed behind you.

It's still confrontational, which the press likes, but it appears more civil and organized.

Re: NSA director heckled on stage at Black Hat security conference

#109

Post by pyrocat »

fragsworth wrote: post #89
dmix wrote: post #71

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I highly recommend reading "The Myth of the Rational Voter: Why Democracies Choose Bad Policies" [1]. Even if polling shows a lack of discontent, it does not mean they were voting rationally. The emotional fear machine of terrorism will always sway towards totalitarianism policies. But if the majority of those citizens were honestly questioned about having their phones (and their entire families) monitored, I doubt t…

> What's missing are leaders (aka media) evaluating and promoting policies based on rationality reasoning rather than what emotional ploys that sell. Leaders in media have no external incentive to promote rationality. They make money by appealing to their audience, to increase the size and loyalty of that audience. There is no solution.

Don't make the news beholden to ratings.

Re: NSA director heckled on stage at Black Hat security conference

#110

Post by moxie »

tptacek wrote: post #43
don_draper wrote: post #40

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>>What's interesting is why he attempted PR reconciliation at a relatively niche conference. He was recruiting. Don't let the tattoos and black shirts worn by the crowd fool you, many work and/or consult for the government.

NSA recruits from engineering universities. They are quite good at it. The idea that he needs to troll Black Hat for talent dignifies the audience at Black Hat and misses the truth of what was happening there.

I speak at one of those universities almost every year, primarily so that I can talk in opposition to the NSA recruiter who is always there giving a talk at the same time.

Those young people look strongly to the culture defined in large part by conferences like Defcon and BlackHat in order to make their choices. For many of them, the trip to LV is the highlight of their year. If the culture of those events changes to be substantially hostile to the NSA and its employees, I can believe that young people in that demographic would at least think twice about joining the NSA.

Basically, I think keynotes like this are part of a cultural war for this community, and I think it's an important one.

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