The Baltic Demographic Disaster • Hacker News Board

Re: The Baltic Demographic Disaster

#61

Post by sologoub » Tue, Jul 23, 2013, 4:55 AM UTC

slc wrote: post #47

jvrossb wrote: post #46

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That doesn't sound right - if I speak fluent Russian and I'm older than 15, it's probably easier for me to move to a Russian-speaking country (where I might have family) than learn Latvian. Especially if my social circle in Latvia is exclusively Russian speaking.

If you're 15, then you have already received free government funded latvian language courses for 9 years in school. It's part of the curriculum. You'd have to be especially lazy to not be able to pass the citizenship exams.

What if the parents chose to send the kid to Russian-language school?

In any case, you have a point that if someone WANTED to integrate into Latvian society, they could. What I'm questioning is the desire.

Having immigrated to US and adapted to that society, I'd have to say that moving "back" to the country where you already speak the language and identify with the society is quite a bit easier than to fully integrate into something you are not used to. It's all in the will of a person and the economic incentives to do so. For me in the US, I had the resolve and very strong financial against to be had if I followed through.

If you take Switzerland as an example, their extremely high citizenship requirements are well supported by the high standard of living and long term benefits. Unfortunately, Latvia, together with the rest of the Baltic states does not yet have such a strong position. I suspect when it does, such complaints will end, as people will be happy to do the work for the reward.

Re: The Baltic Demographic Disaster

#62

Post by chokosabe » Tue, Jul 23, 2013, 10:37 AM UTC

glesica wrote: post #51

slc wrote: post #27

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Mixing in the non-citizens in a discussion about demographics seems wrong. Most of the non-citizens are people around retirement age - factory workers who were sent in the country from other soviet countries, military families and so on. The cause for reduction in numbers of non-citizens is simple - they died. Also claiming that they have an incentive to leave the country seems wrong, because the requirements to acqu…

> Also claiming that they have an incentive to leave the country seems wrong I don't know about that, ever been to Narva? Ethnic Russians are, at least to some extent, in a position similar to that of African Americans in the US, but it is easier for them to leave since they just arrived a few decades ago, whereas African Americans have been in the US long enough to have established long-term connections and to have…

This is daft, stupid and racist. African Americans are Americans. Period.

Re: The Baltic Demographic Disaster

#63

Post by userulluipeste » Tue, Jul 23, 2013, 11:03 AM UTC

atsaloli wrote: post #50

kristaps wrote: post #24

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> as the riots fueled by ethnic tensions have become much more common You seem to imply that there are already "riots fueled by ethnic tensions", care to point to an example?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bronze_Night

A following (and related) action of protest was attempted in Republic of Moldova: http://www.infotag.md/news-en/743300/

Re: The Baltic Demographic Disaster

#64

Post by userulluipeste » Tue, Jul 23, 2013, 11:45 AM UTC

freehunter wrote: post #44

mb_72 wrote: post #34

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Then that could well make you one of ultra-nationalistic Estonians who would rather see their country and language die rather than have it be 'tainted'. I'm half Australian and half Estonian - and have citizenship of both countries. I've worked as a developer in both countries, and currently reside (and work) in Estonia. I see this attitude all the time in Estonia; despite the obvious need for immigration, many peopl…

I actually do like the Baltic states, and wouldn't mind moving. I don't speak Estonian, but I do know a bit of Finnish due to having a Finnish roommate in university. I've long dreamed of moving to several EU nations, but every one of the countries I could see myself living in makes it so hard to get a visa. I'm more used to American immigration policy, which is a lot more "open door" than the EU countries I adore. F…

«American immigration policy, which is a lot more "open door"»

I do not now about that. My impression is that American immigration is just more promoted (and exploited) than in other countries, not necessarily easier or more open. It is like an industry on itself. Other countries are not that eager to sell themselves to immigrants, which I guess it's because the general feeling about what already belongs to locals and is not to be sold.

Re: The Baltic Demographic Disaster

#65

Post by userulluipeste » Tue, Jul 23, 2013, 12:08 PM UTC

aeontech wrote: post #6

nmeofthestate wrote: post #4

I'm interested in levels of ethnic Russian emigration from the Baltics. Has this happened, and if so, how much does it contribute to this picture?

Interestingly, according to http://im.kommersant.ru/ISSUES.PHOTO/CORP/2013/02/21/dsryu4.... , the Baltics combined have the largest russian diaspora in the world, followed by USA, Germany and Israel. Probably due to the proximity and relative ease of emigration from Russia to the Baltic states. If you read russian, here is a series of articles with advice on various emigration destinations. It's an interesting view i…

There are countries that are not considered in that report, and some of them are big, with a major quota of Russian population (like Ukraine). That's probably because Russians don't have a diaspora there (and as far as I know people usually are considering a diaspora when they feel themselves outsiders in some way).

Re: The Baltic Demographic Disaster

#66

Post by glesica » Wed, Jul 24, 2013, 4:14 PM UTC

chokosabe wrote: post #62

glesica wrote: post #51

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Also claiming that they have an incentive to leave the country seems wrong I don't know about that, ever been to Narva? Ethnic Russians are, at least to some extent, in a position similar to that of African Americans in the US, but it is easier for them to leave since they just arrived a few decades ago, whereas African Americans have been in the US long enough to have established long-term connections and to have…

This is daft, stupid and racist. African Americans are Americans. Period.

They sure are Americans, but try telling that to a good portion of the US population and you'll get some push back, unfortunately... Racism is alive and well in America, just like anti-Russian sentiments are alive and well in the Baltics. The Russian minority in the Baltics suffers from many of the same problems modern African Americans do: discrimination, systemic poverty, lack of opportunity, etc.

Re: The Baltic Demographic Disaster

#67

Post by glesica » Wed, Jul 24, 2013, 4:17 PM UTC

mb_72 wrote: post #57

glesica wrote: post #51

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Also claiming that they have an incentive to leave the country seems wrong I don't know about that, ever been to Narva? Ethnic Russians are, at least to some extent, in a position similar to that of African Americans in the US, but it is easier for them to leave since they just arrived a few decades ago, whereas African Americans have been in the US long enough to have established long-term connections and to have…

You could make that comparison if African Americans had been invaders of the US, but not otherwise. Narva is a huge problem for the Estonian government - unemployment there is high, and the educational institutions struggle to field teachers who can teach in Estonian. As a result, young people with a Russian background are at a disadvantage with respect to basic language skills. It's also fair to say there are a numb…

Why does it matter how a discriminated-against minority group got to a place? Russian Balts are treated poorly. African Americans are treated poorly. Both groups suffer from lack of opportunities, institutional discrimination at various points, and a cycle of poverty caused largely by bigotry. How they got there is really immaterial.

Re: The Baltic Demographic Disaster

#68

Post by slc » Wed, Jul 24, 2013, 6:15 PM UTC

glesica wrote: post #67

mb_72 wrote: post #57

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You could make that comparison if African Americans had been invaders of the US, but not otherwise. Narva is a huge problem for the Estonian government - unemployment there is high, and the educational institutions struggle to field teachers who can teach in Estonian. As a result, young people with a Russian background are at a disadvantage with respect to basic language skills. It's also fair to say there are a numb…

Why does it matter how a discriminated-against minority group got to a place? Russian Balts are treated poorly. African Americans are treated poorly. Both groups suffer from lack of opportunities, institutional discrimination at various points, and a cycle of poverty caused largely by bigotry. How they got there is really immaterial.

You forgot to compare the treatment of the russian speaking people in the baltic states to the treatment of jews in the nazi germany. Both were treated poorly.