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House of Lords debates pardon for Alan Turing

bbc.co.uk

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Re: House of Lords debates pardon for Alan Turing

#91
post #82
post #65

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Why does it matter what the majority of people think?

It doesn't, though he is not even right. Bigots like him are thankfully a dying breed ( literally , if you are a fan of Max Planck) in this country.

How do you know I'm not right? Do you provide any evidence? Also what is your obsession with calling me a bigot, when I'm open to dialogue. You are the one who is glad that I'm a "dying breed", so I would say you're the bigot. Also, if you want to talk about literally being a dying breed, I would think homosexuals who do not have children fit that definition better. Also, I'm 19 years old. Much how there was a reactionary swing to the left in the 1960/70's, there could very well be a reactionary swing back to the right that is emerging. (I'm using the archaic "left/right" metaphors just for sake of argument)

Re: House of Lords debates pardon for Alan Turing

#92

The bigger issue here is that people look to governments and religions for pardons, permission and other validation. People that see some kind of meaning in empty gestures like a posthumous pardon (after shaming and chemically castrating the man) are grossly mislead. Buying into the hype of government is what gives governments the power to commit senseless crimes like what was done to Alan Turing and many, many crime…

Those who want equal rights under the law should just “kill themselves now”? Wow. To borrow your own phrase, the proper response to that is “fuck off.”

Re: House of Lords debates pardon for Alan Turing

#93
post #25

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Like the majority of people, I oppose gay marriage. From your past comments, you appear to be American. I am therefore ecstatic to inform you that you are in the minority. http://fivethirtyeight.blogs.nytimes.com/2012/05/09/support-...

I said majority of people, not Americans. My statement stands correct. Look at what other countries have done to recently stem gay culture: Russia recently passed a unanimous (436-0) vote which banned gay propaganda[1]. Homosexuals acceptance is pushed hard in the western media, but don't let that skew your worldview. Reactionary responses are not uncommon. [1] http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2013/jun/11/russia-law-b…

Yes, you're in great company there, with well-respected allies like Iran, Uganda and Afghanistan. Congratulations.

Re: House of Lords debates pardon for Alan Turing

#94
post #29
post #21

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No, let's. If homosexuals should be allowed to experience their sexuality than why not permit them to fulfill their emotional, romantic, and other needs? It's such an artificial line to draw and we certainly can discuss both gay marriage and the legality of homosexuality in the same discussion.

The problem arises that the legality of marriage was designed around traditional families. There's nothing that stops homosexuals from fulfilling their emotional, romantic, and other needs. But when you involved tax deductions because children are such an expensive commitment, it gets hairy. I do support civil unions (but not gay adoption), and I am tolerant of gays (I discuss these issues with friends who are gay),…

> The problem arises that the legality of marriage was designed around traditional families.

The current legalities around marriage are mostly based directly on the idea that a marriage is a special bilateral promise of mutual support, and not much on other features of "traditional" families.

They've also changed a lot over the two centuries to remove most of the vestigious of the older model of the wife being legally subordinate to the husband. Marriage legalities, and the underlying model of the relationship in marriage on which they are based, aren't the product of some long-static "traditional" model that had been undisturbed for an extended period of time before the same-sex marriage debate.

> There's nothing that stops homosexuals from fulfilling their emotional, romantic, and other needs.

Actually, not having access to the legal rights involved in marriage does prevent that.

> But when you involved tax deductions because children are such an expensive commitment, it gets hairy.

The tax deductions on that premise require you to have children that you are responsible, they aren't an automatic consequence of marriage. So I don't see how they are relevant. The situation in which marriage has tax benefits is if, as part of a couple's arrangement of mutual support, one focuses more on work outside of the house (which is taxable) supported by the other taking on a heavier load of the domestic duties, since married couples pay lower taxes than two individuals when there is a significant disparity of income.

So I'm not sure how your statement above has anything to do with marriage. It seems to have something to do with not wanting people to get tax deductions or credits that come with raising children without actually raising children, which is sensible but completely irrelevant.

> I do support civil unions

Given your statement above about the "legality of marriage" and that "civil unions" as opposed to "domestic partnership" is usually the term given for providing the legalities of marriage under a different name, why?

> (but not gay adoption)

Why? Is it that you prefer children to have less chance of having permanent families and spend more time in foster homes? Or just because you dislike homosexuals?

> and I am tolerant of gays (I discuss these issues with friends who are gay)

And I'm sure they appreciate your magnanimity in deigning to discuss with them the reasons why you think they should receive unequal treatment under the law.

> but to change the very definition of marriage goes too far - and ends up confusing everyone.

"The very definition of marriage" has been pretty much continuously changing throughout all of history. Its not all that confusing, and, to the extent it is, your desire to avoid dealing with the confusion of changing social institutions isn't a reason other people ought to suffer discrimination.

Re: House of Lords debates pardon for Alan Turing

#95
post #38

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Why not do it all in a single bill? They could still make him a figure head, even name the bill after him and include a specific point about pardoning him, but include everyone else too. If this ends up getting through all the stages and they then want to do the same for everyone else, at the very least it's a waste of time going through the stages again (if there's no more debate), or if there is still debate then e…

That's exactly what they're doing. A bill that would pardon 75,000 men, including 16,000 who are still alive. It would be named the "Alan Turing Bill".

The 16,000 alive can apply for pardon, but it's most likely not automatic, I guess their case must be reviewed.

The government didn't want to allow pardon to the dead because they said that in some cases they couldn't know that these homosexual acts were consensual and not under age. The Lord presenting the bill is advocating for rehabilitation of the dead if there is enough evidence available, and he hopes the Turing bill (which will pardon only Alan Turing) is a first step towards allowing pardon for the 59,000 convicted who are now dead.

Re: House of Lords debates pardon for Alan Turing

#96
post #51

Earlier quoted context omitted.

... if the only problem with the acts in question was that they were homosexual.

If they were convicted of both 'homosexual acts' and robbing a bank at the same time, then just pardon them of the 'homosexual acts'. Unrelated crimes are unrelated .

That's conviction for two separate acts, which is a different thing than, say, acts which are homosexual and also forcible or pedophillic or something. Note that I most explicitly don't mean to imply that these attributes are any more common of homosexual behavior than heterosexual, just that they can be attributes of the same act, and may even have been punished under the same statute.

Re: House of Lords debates pardon for Alan Turing

#97

The bigger issue here is that people look to governments and religions for pardons, permission and other validation. People that see some kind of meaning in empty gestures like a posthumous pardon (after shaming and chemically castrating the man) are grossly mislead. Buying into the hype of government is what gives governments the power to commit senseless crimes like what was done to Alan Turing and many, many crime…

Agreed. This particular "pardon", if he gets it, is coming 61 years too late. The fact that he saved his country's ass ought to have counted for more than this. The whole case is a definition of ingratitude.

Re: House of Lords debates pardon for Alan Turing

#98

The bigger issue here is that people look to governments and religions for pardons, permission and other validation. People that see some kind of meaning in empty gestures like a posthumous pardon (after shaming and chemically castrating the man) are grossly mislead. Buying into the hype of government is what gives governments the power to commit senseless crimes like what was done to Alan Turing and many, many crime…

Someone should print this out and make you read it out loud when you reach adulthood.

Re: House of Lords debates pardon for Alan Turing

#99

Earlier quoted context omitted.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/technology-16919012 The explanation given was that the law was wrong, not that he hadn't broken it so as to have a pardon, and you can't posthumously commute a sentence

> not that he hadn't broken it so as to have a pardon Reasoning I find confusing. A pardon is by definition something given to people convicted of breaking the law. It can be and is sometimes used as a relief for people who have been -wrongly- convicted if there is no other mechanism (or just because it's easier), but that's not implied or required. Is this some difference between US and UK law?

The argument would be that he wasn't wrongly convicted.

By modern standards it's obviously a stupid, unjust and immoral law that he was convicted under; but if he was correctly found guilty under the laws of the time, then it was a sound conviction.

Re: House of Lords debates pardon for Alan Turing

#100
post #71

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Better to attack bigots who stand against marriage equality than to stand with them.

I'm a bigot? Please, look up the definition of bigot and then look in the mirror. I even explicitly said I was tolerant of gays. You are the one intolerant of others' opinions.

Yes, I'm sure some of your best friends are gay people. [rolls eyes]
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