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Linus on "acting professionally"

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Re: Linus on "acting professionally"

#311

Post by protomyth »

Goladus wrote: post #261
smtddr wrote: post #61

Earlier quoted context omitted.

So, basically your position is "If you don't like it, get out". I'm not sure this view is productive in any kind of discussion. Personally, I think the amount of abusive speech & profanity in the tech-field is way too much. I assume(incorrectly?) that it's because it's mostly male and a lot of men like to do that to each other. I personally don't do it to anyone and don't like it being directed at me.

So, basically your position is "If you don't like it, get out". I'm not sure this view is productive in any kind of discussion. Yes. The discussion shouldn't even be taking place. It is a waste of time. That's why the parent qualified Linus as the leader of one of the most important human endeavors of the last century. Most project managers do not behave like Linus. There's a whole world full of people who "act profe…

> That's why the parent qualified Linus as the leader of one of the most important human endeavors of the last century.

How quickly people forget the Polio vaccine. I don't think Linux qualifies in the top 10, and hyperbole doesn't really help the conversation.

Re: Linus on "acting professionally"

#312

Post by wozniacki »

podperson wrote: post #294
DodgyEggplant wrote: post #223

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Linus manages combined efforts of hundreds of people for years, probably leading the most successful open source project ever. Without salaries, without command and rule authority, without perks, without shared office space, even without HR. He probably knows something about what it takes to manage people

Or maybe he's just so talented that he can carry a huge interpersonal handicap. Actually, this email is pretty polite and to-the-point. I don't know exactly what it is that he said that was offensive in private, but he's actually being pretty reasonable here. The thing is, some people spend a lot of effort when writing to check that they don't accidentally leave "sharp edges" in their writing (and then they still fai…

There's a ton of research on how written communications (especially with relative anonymity, etc.) can lead to cascading flamewars and so forth without anyone setting out to troll or be outrageous.

Genuinely interested in this research. Care to cite?

Re: Linus on "acting professionally"

#313

Post by gregd »

phryk wrote: post #154
smtddr wrote: post #61

Earlier quoted context omitted.

So, basically your position is "If you don't like it, get out". I'm not sure this view is productive in any kind of discussion. Personally, I think the amount of abusive speech & profanity in the tech-field is way too much. I assume(incorrectly?) that it's because it's mostly male and a lot of men like to do that to each other. I personally don't do it to anyone and don't like it being directed at me.

Too much profanity? Well butter my ass and call me fucking skittles! So you want to censor everyone who doesn't buy into your flowery child talk? Fuck that. Cursing is a perfectly fine means of setting emphasis and I sure as shitpissfuckcuntcocksuckermotherfuckertits am not going to surrender that just so some shithead I don't even care about can jack off to his or her little control fantasies. You don't like that? I…

We have a rule in my house. The only bad words are words used to hurt other people. Fuck and shit aren't included in that group...

Re: Linus on "acting professionally"

#314

Post by pivnicek »

Vornir wrote: post #127

I know now what I could tell to a young nerd who's been bullied: Don't worry, later you'll be able to do the same I guess it's a great example for young peoples that you can get away with any despicable behaviors as long as you have done something worthwhile in your life. People are then able to rationalize that by saying it was "warranted" or "thought provoking" or any garbage they can find to justify it, because so…

No, it's not ridiculous. If building a bridge were the context, and someone built a piece that would collapse the bridge, I'd fully expect any foreman to say "What the fuck is that?" "That is shit".

And I'd fully expect any worker to say "Yeah, damn, you're right, that was stupid. Cheers, I'll fix that"

People didn't start building stuff in the digital era., It's the same principles.

I hope to hell all crap gets called out, otherwise we're in a position where the bridge builders "meant well", and I wouldn't want to cross a river over such a bridge.

Re: Linus on "acting professionally"

#315

Post by gregd »

stephenr wrote: post #22
ealexhudson wrote: post #11

Linus is dead wrong here. When he says acting professionally means "fake politeness, the lying, the office politics and backstabbing, the passive aggressiveness, and the buzzwords", he's attacking a straw man: none of that behaviour is professional, and to say that professional behaviour must degenerate to that behaviour is a stretch at best. Aggression is not warranted in a professional environment; neither overt (a…

You've obviously never worked in an office, or you have taken a big step away from reality. The things Linus mentions are what happens as a result of supposed "professionalism". People are emotional, reactionary creatures with very different needs. These people are kernel developers, not 4 year olds. If they commit code that is fucking stupid, they should be called fucking stupid for it. As was shown on a recent post…

Those things don't happen as a result of professionalism. They happen because some people can be assholes. Assholes don't care if a workplace is "professional" or a fucking free-for-all.

Re: Linus on "acting professionally"

#316

Post by pmelendez »

DigitalJack wrote: post #263
bad_user wrote: post #255

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I do not think managing an open-source project is so different than running a company. > Linus doesn't run a business. He's the kernel admin He's also the original author. And he still is an awesome developer and the Linux kernel is not his only accomplishment. Git is another one. Linus is one of those people that can change the face of our industry over night and he has done so at least twice. Not only that, but if…

The main difference is everybody is remote. I don't doubt Linus would be less brutal in person.

> "I don't doubt Linus would be less brutal in person."

My personal rule of thumb is do not say something written that I wouldn't say in person, especially if I am using a profanity language.

Re: Linus on "acting professionally"

#317

Post by nl »

vacri wrote: post #51
nl wrote: post #36

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You've obviously never worked in an office, or you have taken a big step away from reality. Perhaps you have never worked in a good office, on a good team where people respect each other. These people are kernel developers, not 4 year olds. If they commit code that is fucking stupid, they should be called fucking stupid for it. Why? It's rude and additionally it doesn't seem to achieve anything positive that can't be…

It's rude and additionally it doesn't seem to achieve anything positive that can't be achieved more politely. It saves time when you don't have to carefully structure each criticism in a compliment sandwich and so forth. It's understood in this environment that that's how the story goes - the excerpts people see of 'linus being rude again' are tut-tutted by a bunch of people who've never read a single other message o…

Politeness != Compliment sandwich

The only reason being polite saves time is because someone is unpracticed at it.

This comment (and indeed your comment) are both polite and completely disagree. I spent a while thinking of how best to express my point, but none at all working out how to avoid being offensive.

But if it makes you feel better: fuck compliment sandwiches ;)

Re: Linus on "acting professionally"

#318

Post by Leepic »

corresation wrote: post #224
DanBC wrote: post #216

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I agree with everything you say. The problem that you don't explicitly mention is that people see Linus behaving this way and feel it's acceptable, and they carry on that behaviour. Some open source environments are toxic and horrible and it's hard to correct that when you have very public figures acting in that toxic horrible way.

In no way is he acting in a "toxic horrible way". Some people simply have very, very thin skin and the judgment of behavior -- the social expectations -- is absolutely a thinly-veiled tactic of control. Linus doesn't have to be put in his place, and if you don't like that tough luck. Linus is absolutely right that in the professional sense the same behavior simply moves to the shadows. By being professional we vent t…

>Linus doesn't have to be put in his place, and if you don't like that tough luck.

Actually, expecting a moderate appreciation of effort isn't by any stretch of the imagination "social expectation". Calling my code shit because it doesn't compile is fine but repeatedly doing so and getting away can only be interpreted as a power play - the very act of using your influence as a leverage to bring your subjective opinion to professional relations.

Last time I checked there was an industry who paid dearly for people skills. Just not software - because it doesn't matter. THAT'S the social construct - that it's ok to be tech-savvy and lack social skills.

Re: Linus on "acting professionally"

#319

Post by robmclarty »

columbo wrote: post #200

This is another great example of why you can't take successful people and distil them down to their base components and say "ah, this is what made him great!" I believe being a loud-abrasive-dictator works for Linus because he is famous for being a loud-abrasive-dictator. That's not important. What is important is the reader. Let's be clear on a few things #1 - Linus doesn't run a business. He's the kernel admin, he'…

I think you're missing the really great point Linus is making: that we (as humans) can find a way to work together on a common goal despite our differences.

Linus obviously has some differences, and yet is managing to pull off this amazing project that affects so many of us.

Forget business and software development, the world needs to learn how to work this way, because there's no way the entire world will ever "be professional" in that we all agree to the same ideology and behaviour. If the human race as a whole is going to function effectively, we need to be able to work together even though we don't always agree. If we can do that, as Linus does, we win.

Re: Linus on "acting professionally"

#320

Post by makomk »

podperson wrote: post #294
DodgyEggplant wrote: post #223

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Linus manages combined efforts of hundreds of people for years, probably leading the most successful open source project ever. Without salaries, without command and rule authority, without perks, without shared office space, even without HR. He probably knows something about what it takes to manage people

Or maybe he's just so talented that he can carry a huge interpersonal handicap. Actually, this email is pretty polite and to-the-point. I don't know exactly what it is that he said that was offensive in private, but he's actually being pretty reasonable here. The thing is, some people spend a lot of effort when writing to check that they don't accidentally leave "sharp edges" in their writing (and then they still fai…

Actually, I reckon he's being fairly unreasonable, he's just couching it in superficially-reasonable terms. He's arguing that "playing the victim card" is a way of enforcing your expectations upon others, but accusing someone of "playing the victim card" is itself an incredibly nasty way of imposing your own expectations on others.

It's essentially saying that not only should Sarah Sharp be willing to put up with all the hostility, but that the only reason she's complaining about it is to make a political point. It's a way of snidely arguing that she can't possibly actually care about the issue. That's far more dismissive of other people's reactions than anything Linus Torvalds is complaining about, and yet he's trying to claim that he has the inclusive moral high ground and Sarah Sharp is the one who's ignoring the fact that different people react differently.

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