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Linus on "acting professionally"

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Re: Linus on "acting professionally"

#31

Post by Nrsolis »

ealexhudson wrote: post #11

Linus is dead wrong here. When he says acting professionally means "fake politeness, the lying, the office politics and backstabbing, the passive aggressiveness, and the buzzwords", he's attacking a straw man: none of that behaviour is professional, and to say that professional behaviour must degenerate to that behaviour is a stretch at best. Aggression is not warranted in a professional environment; neither overt (a…

The real danger here is that once you've developed the habit of berating people who screw up, you'll continue to do it when it's not really called for.

I'm no shrinking violet. I got a good ass-chewing from time to time in the Navy and each time I deserved it. That said, you'd be surprised to hear that ass-chewing doesn't happen NEARLY as often as you'd expect it to in a hyper-aggressive life-or-death type world like the military.

I can't imagine anyone in the civilian world getting their panties bunched up enough to justify the kinds of shit I see from people who get their nose bent out of shape when someone screws up, but see it I do. Often, I think it's an over-reaction.

It's one thing to yell at someone who makes a mistake that might get people killed. It's another to flip out because it might make someone's browser run slower or crash.

YMMV.

Re: Linus on "acting professionally"

#32

Post by jonahx »

sz4kerto wrote: post #12

The reason why Linus (or anybody else) might want to act 'professionally' (or nicely, whatever) is because some people feel bad when they are shouted at. It's completely valid to argue that shouting is just a culturally different, but acceptable way of expressing one's thoughts but then you need to be aware that you'll potentially lose people who just simply hate this form of communication. So this discussion is not…

>because some people feel bad when they are shouted at.

while people tolerate it at different levels, the phrase "some people" is misleading: almost nobody likes to be shouted at, or even feels neutral about it.

>It's completely valid to argue that shouting is just a culturally different, but acceptable way of expressing one's thoughts but then you need to be aware that you'll potentially lose people who just simply hate this form of communication.

this is true, but it's worth noting the same logical argument applies to physically hitting someone. and indeed, in other times and other cultures this was and is acceptable. and whenever those social norms have changed, there are people making what is essentially the same argument linus is making (just substituting "hitting" for "yelling").

Re: Linus on "acting professionally"

#33

Post by derefr »

sz4kerto wrote: post #12

The reason why Linus (or anybody else) might want to act 'professionally' (or nicely, whatever) is because some people feel bad when they are shouted at. It's completely valid to argue that shouting is just a culturally different, but acceptable way of expressing one's thoughts but then you need to be aware that you'll potentially lose people who just simply hate this form of communication. So this discussion is not…

I don't think that Linus imagined that the result of his messages wouldn't be people feeling bad. Feeling bad is the whole point. Negative reinforcement; hitting the puppy with a newspaper so it won't shit on your carpet again.

I think the question is, for any kernel developer--do you care enough about Linux that you want to be negatively reinforced when you're being stupid, or do you care more about feeling good all the time?

Re: Linus on "acting professionally"

#35

Post by claudius »

Ygg2 wrote: post #17
ealexhudson wrote: post #11

Linus is dead wrong here. When he says acting professionally means "fake politeness, the lying, the office politics and backstabbing, the passive aggressiveness, and the buzzwords", he's attacking a straw man: none of that behaviour is professional, and to say that professional behaviour must degenerate to that behaviour is a stretch at best. Aggression is not warranted in a professional environment; neither overt (a…

Just gonna post these two gems I found at a previous thread about Linus ( https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=6050443 ): http://linux.slashdot.org/comments.pl?sid=3977141&cid=442916... http://linux.slashdot.org/comments.pl?sid=3977141&cid=442909... To me Linus is kinda like Wagner, I do like and enjoy his work, but as a person he is not someone I'd aspire to emulate.

Regarding the last bit, I don’t quite see the point. If I had a wife and she ripped off the sink, put a plastic tub there and called it an improvement, because the metal in the sink could rust, I would be quite clear with her that I think this is a ludicrously stupid idea and she should feel extremely dumb for even thinking of it, her being my wife or not.

(Nitpick: Do you mean Richard Wagner or someone called Vagner I’ve never heard of?)

Re: Linus on "acting professionally"

#36

Post by nl »

stephenr wrote: post #22
ealexhudson wrote: post #11

Linus is dead wrong here. When he says acting professionally means "fake politeness, the lying, the office politics and backstabbing, the passive aggressiveness, and the buzzwords", he's attacking a straw man: none of that behaviour is professional, and to say that professional behaviour must degenerate to that behaviour is a stretch at best. Aggression is not warranted in a professional environment; neither overt (a…

You've obviously never worked in an office, or you have taken a big step away from reality. The things Linus mentions are what happens as a result of supposed "professionalism". People are emotional, reactionary creatures with very different needs. These people are kernel developers, not 4 year olds. If they commit code that is fucking stupid, they should be called fucking stupid for it. As was shown on a recent post…

You've obviously never worked in an office, or you have taken a big step away from reality.

Perhaps you have never worked in a good office, on a good team where people respect each other.

These people are kernel developers, not 4 year olds. If they commit code that is fucking stupid, they should be called fucking stupid for it.

Why? It's rude and additionally it doesn't seem to achieve anything positive that can't be achieved more politely.

Re: Linus on "acting professionally"

#37

Post by jakobe »

Torvalds seems to be a real bully. And it hurts me to see all these responses justifying his behaviour, as if this is the way it must be.

Just look at this message: http://webcache.googleusercontent.com/search?q=cache:1TUvG3J...

There is no justification for this kind of behaviour. If anybody else behaved this way, they would be sent to a psychiatrist. But apparently since it's Linus Torvalds, he's just being a little "harsh" and that's necessary to get his point across.

Re: Linus on "acting professionally"

#38

Post by ealexhudson »

stephenr wrote: post #22
ealexhudson wrote: post #11

Linus is dead wrong here. When he says acting professionally means "fake politeness, the lying, the office politics and backstabbing, the passive aggressiveness, and the buzzwords", he's attacking a straw man: none of that behaviour is professional, and to say that professional behaviour must degenerate to that behaviour is a stretch at best. Aggression is not warranted in a professional environment; neither overt (a…

You've obviously never worked in an office, or you have taken a big step away from reality. The things Linus mentions are what happens as a result of supposed "professionalism". People are emotional, reactionary creatures with very different needs. These people are kernel developers, not 4 year olds. If they commit code that is fucking stupid, they should be called fucking stupid for it. As was shown on a recent post…

So lying is a result of "acting professionally", but swearing is natural and ok? I don't buy that "people" need to swear any more than they need to lie, or that the result of swearing is somehow less damaging/more productive than lying.

Re: Linus on "acting professionally"

#39

Post by k-mcgrady »

His last paragraph sums it up perfectly. When people hide behind false politeness and act passive aggressively they tend to let someone else know about their frustrations which leads to rumours, backstabbing etc.

It's also important to remember that tone doesn't come across well online so you shouldn't overreact to what you're reading. If someone curses online you could read it very aggressively. But if you were to hear them speak it it might seem much less threatening and aggressive and most or a speech pattern/way of phrasing things/way of making a point.

Re: Linus on "acting professionally"

#40

Post by boothead »

sixbrx wrote: post #30

In a long term relationship, I don't like subtlety and politeness. It just leads to emotional amplification on the receiver side - the receiver just learns to "turn up the volume" on anything said to try find the true signal. (Was that praise just a bit faint this time, hiding some kind of displeasure with my work? What was that slight smile about?) Some of the most offensive put-downs come as faint praise from peopl…

Interesting view point. I'd never really considered the turn up the volume effect being the flip side of being subtle with people, but I think you're spot on!
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