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Linus on "acting professionally"

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Re: Linus on "acting professionally"

#121

Post by lazyjones »

pasiaj wrote: post #76
lazyjones wrote: post #29

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> The whole point is that he is not suppressing the urges. Freud would disagree and so do I. > you snidely suggested that that he must be suppressing some "natural urges" Same thing Linus did in the last paragraph. :-/ > your reply to be a perfect example of what Linus is trying to avoid ("fake politeness[...]" That makes no sense. I am just trying to analyze and understand his behavior. There's no emotion involved a…

>> The whole point is that he is not suppressing the urges. > Freud would disagree and so do I. So one can not curse out of anger or frustration without there being suppressed urges? I do not think Freud would agree with you.

> So one can not curse out of anger or frustration without there being suppressed urges?

If the "cursing" involves typing things on a keyboard, then yes, I believe there are some things (urges, actions) being suppressed.

Re: Linus on "acting professionally"

#122

Post by Jare »

ealexhudson wrote: post #38
stephenr wrote: post #22

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You've obviously never worked in an office, or you have taken a big step away from reality. The things Linus mentions are what happens as a result of supposed "professionalism". People are emotional, reactionary creatures with very different needs. These people are kernel developers, not 4 year olds. If they commit code that is fucking stupid, they should be called fucking stupid for it. As was shown on a recent post…

So lying is a result of "acting professionally", but swearing is natural and ok? I don't buy that "people" need to swear any more than they need to lie, or that the result of swearing is somehow less damaging/more productive than lying.

Swearing affects the form; lying affects the content. For obvious reasons, it is much easier to maintain meaningful communication ignoring form than ignoring content. So, yes, swearing can be much less damaging; it doesn't always HAVE to be less damaging, but in the case at hand it seems to work wonderfully.

Re: Linus on "acting professionally"

#123

Post by flumbaps »

ricw wrote: post #64
nl wrote: post #36

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You've obviously never worked in an office, or you have taken a big step away from reality. Perhaps you have never worked in a good office, on a good team where people respect each other. These people are kernel developers, not 4 year olds. If they commit code that is fucking stupid, they should be called fucking stupid for it. Why? It's rude and additionally it doesn't seem to achieve anything positive that can't be…

Yes it can. Direct criticism leads to more honesty, leads to a more productive work environment. Just grow some balls and learn to deal with direct criticism..

It's not that hard to give honest direct criticism without being abusive. Not knowing the difference indicates that you're a terrible leader. Belittling anyone who refuses to tolerate abuse as needing to "grow some balls" is utterly ridiculous. I wouldn't work for anyone with your attitudes.

Re: Linus on "acting professionally"

#124

Post by vacri »

jonahx wrote: post #56
stephenr wrote: post #22

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You've obviously never worked in an office, or you have taken a big step away from reality. The things Linus mentions are what happens as a result of supposed "professionalism". People are emotional, reactionary creatures with very different needs. These people are kernel developers, not 4 year olds. If they commit code that is fucking stupid, they should be called fucking stupid for it. As was shown on a recent post…

this is a false dichotomy. it's possible to be succint, harsh, and directly to the point without swearing or being abusive. for example, off the top of my head: "stephen, this code is riddled with basic errors and is completely unacceptable. please fix a, b, and c immediately and know that if you make mistakes like this again, your contributions will no longer be welcome." versus: "stephen, WHAT THE FUCK IS WRONG WIT…

That's a false representation of how Torvalds behaves, since pretty much every time one of this "oo, he swore!" threads pops up, he also explains why he has problems. And it's never been half in all caps.

Re: Linus on "acting professionally"

#125

Post by Xylakant »

derefr wrote: post #33
sz4kerto wrote: post #12

The reason why Linus (or anybody else) might want to act 'professionally' (or nicely, whatever) is because some people feel bad when they are shouted at. It's completely valid to argue that shouting is just a culturally different, but acceptable way of expressing one's thoughts but then you need to be aware that you'll potentially lose people who just simply hate this form of communication. So this discussion is not…

I don't think that Linus imagined that the result of his messages wouldn't be people feeling bad. Feeling bad is the whole point. Negative reinforcement; hitting the puppy with a newspaper so it won't shit on your carpet again. I think the question is, for any kernel developer--do you care enough about Linux that you want to be negatively reinforced when you're being stupid, or do you care more about feeling good all…

See, you need to read up on puppy education. Hitting the puppet with a newspaper will not achieve the desired goal - now the puppy is confused and afraid.[1]

Same is true in work environments: You criticise the work, do not insult the person. Otherwise problems will be swept under the rug until they start to rot and can't be hidden any more.

[1] You can actually achieve the exact opposite: Peeing is a gesture of submission for dog puppies, so if you yell at them, they might just pee again.

Re: Linus on "acting professionally"

#126

Post by nextw33k »

jonahx wrote: post #56
stephenr wrote: post #22

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You've obviously never worked in an office, or you have taken a big step away from reality. The things Linus mentions are what happens as a result of supposed "professionalism". People are emotional, reactionary creatures with very different needs. These people are kernel developers, not 4 year olds. If they commit code that is fucking stupid, they should be called fucking stupid for it. As was shown on a recent post…

this is a false dichotomy. it's possible to be succint, harsh, and directly to the point without swearing or being abusive. for example, off the top of my head: "stephen, this code is riddled with basic errors and is completely unacceptable. please fix a, b, and c immediately and know that if you make mistakes like this again, your contributions will no longer be welcome." versus: "stephen, WHAT THE FUCK IS WRONG WIT…

I think you need to read the email again. You failed to see his point.

You are trying to create uniformity and conformance, which is not in our nature. Some people are polite, others are not (Linus for example). The working environment of the kernel mailing list is public and subject to harsh language because it's run (rather successfully it could easily be concluded) with the philosophy that people should be able to express themselves.

Re: Linus on "acting professionally"

#127

Post by Vornir »

I know now what I could tell to a young nerd who's been bullied:

Don't worry, later you'll be able to do the same

I guess it's a great example for young peoples that you can get away with any despicable behaviors as long as you have done something worthwhile in your life. People are then able to rationalize that by saying it was "warranted" or "thought provoking" or any garbage they can find to justify it, because somehow that person is in their "tribe".

Yes it's more efficient to say "I don't like that because X, Y or Z, change that." than "I don't like that because X, Y or Z, CHANGE THAT PIECE OF SHIT". Otherwise, you're implying that without swear words, Linus wouldn't have any power over the kernel.

Ridiculous isn't it?

Re: Linus on "acting professionally"

#128

Post by jonahx »

newbie12 wrote: post #106
jonahx wrote: post #56

Earlier quoted context omitted.

this is a false dichotomy. it's possible to be succint, harsh, and directly to the point without swearing or being abusive. for example, off the top of my head: "stephen, this code is riddled with basic errors and is completely unacceptable. please fix a, b, and c immediately and know that if you make mistakes like this again, your contributions will no longer be welcome." versus: "stephen, WHAT THE FUCK IS WRONG WIT…

In my experience, the closer you are to action the more swearing (sales, press, front-line dev) and the polite stuff is more for the office bureaucrats who aren't critical to the success of the organization. There's something refreshingly blunt and urgent about the 2nd case. (Edit: My experience includes Fortune 100 in consumer tech and finance)

to be clear, i'm not against swearing in all circumstances. in some relationships, in some circumstances, it's perfectly fine, but it's an implicitly negotiated rule that both parties understand. i'm thinking, eg, of most male friendships that go back a long way, but i could also see it between two sales guys who've been in the trenches together, etc.

the point is it's taken in a certain spirit, and you can't force people who don't know you well, or don't share that sensibility, to partake of that spirit.

even if you personally prefer that style, it's hard to argue that it's effective from a practical perspective. for the large majority of people, the first example is far more likely to actually get you your desired result than 2nd.

Re: Linus on "acting professionally"

#129

Post by k__ »

pmelendez wrote: post #112
jdietrich wrote: post #44

You don't get to tell Linus what is or isn't professional. He has led one of the most important human endeavours of the last hundred years. However he decides to get that done is his business. Call it rude or impolite, call it thoughtless or insulting, but don't call it unprofessional. If there's one thing that nobody can dispute, it's that Linus knows how to get shit done and knows how to run an effective team. Ther…

> "He has led one of the most important human endeavours of the last hundred years" Yes, Linux has remarkable importance mostly because its installed base (IMHO it doesn't offer any innovation from an OS perspective, other that being stable enough and free) However, that doesn't give Linus a free card to be abusive and rude. Yes, not being polite and being insulting is indeed being unprofessional, there are ways to s…

define good ... oh well...

Re: Linus on "acting professionally"

#130

Post by [deleted] »

Ygg2 wrote: post #55
claudius wrote: post #35

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Regarding the last bit, I don’t quite see the point. If I had a wife and she ripped off the sink, put a plastic tub there and called it an improvement, because the metal in the sink could rust, I would be quite clear with her that I think this is a ludicrously stupid idea and she should feel extremely dumb for even thinking of it, her being my wife or not. (Nitpick: Do you mean Richard Wagner or someone called Vagner…

Point is if you are going to be totally honest, that marriage won't work off really well. You need to be honest about some things but some small things you need to overlook (like her snooring, or eating her caked blood, or smoking or etc.). If she did that, I'd definitely say it is a stupid/bad idea because X, Y, Z and move along. She just lacks context/knowledge why it is a stupid idea. If she is dimwitted to a poin…

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