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Linus on "acting professionally"

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Re: Linus on "acting professionally"

#51

Post by vacri »

nl wrote: post #36
stephenr wrote: post #22

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You've obviously never worked in an office, or you have taken a big step away from reality. The things Linus mentions are what happens as a result of supposed "professionalism". People are emotional, reactionary creatures with very different needs. These people are kernel developers, not 4 year olds. If they commit code that is fucking stupid, they should be called fucking stupid for it. As was shown on a recent post…

You've obviously never worked in an office, or you have taken a big step away from reality. Perhaps you have never worked in a good office, on a good team where people respect each other. These people are kernel developers, not 4 year olds. If they commit code that is fucking stupid, they should be called fucking stupid for it. Why? It's rude and additionally it doesn't seem to achieve anything positive that can't be…

It's rude and additionally it doesn't seem to achieve anything positive that can't be achieved more politely.

It saves time when you don't have to carefully structure each criticism in a compliment sandwich and so forth. It's understood in this environment that that's how the story goes - the excerpts people see of 'linus being rude again' are tut-tutted by a bunch of people who've never read a single other message on the kernel mailing list.

Re: Linus on "acting professionally"

#52

Post by cmpxchg8 »

stephenr wrote: post #22
ealexhudson wrote: post #11

Linus is dead wrong here. When he says acting professionally means "fake politeness, the lying, the office politics and backstabbing, the passive aggressiveness, and the buzzwords", he's attacking a straw man: none of that behaviour is professional, and to say that professional behaviour must degenerate to that behaviour is a stretch at best. Aggression is not warranted in a professional environment; neither overt (a…

You've obviously never worked in an office, or you have taken a big step away from reality. The things Linus mentions are what happens as a result of supposed "professionalism". People are emotional, reactionary creatures with very different needs. These people are kernel developers, not 4 year olds. If they commit code that is fucking stupid, they should be called fucking stupid for it. As was shown on a recent post…

Being professional means you leave emotions at the door (like in poker) and back your argument with data.

The algorithm might be stupid, that doesn't make the person stupid. Ad hominem attacks are a very poor way to defend your point and will result in people not wanting to work with you.

Saying "grow a thicker skin" won't make it better either.

Linus is a brilliant engineer, his people skills not so brilliant. But we all knew that already.

Re: Linus on "acting professionally"

#53

Post by nawitus »

martin-adams wrote: post #23

>> Because I can pretty much guarantee that I'll continue cursing. To me, the discussion would be about how to work together despite these kinds of cultural differences So if I get this right, we just need a Linus communication adapter that can translate messages so they are compatible with either side. Does that mean when someone talks to Linus it should add swear words to be compatible with him? :) I see his point,…

>Does that mean when someone talks to Linus it should add swear words to be compatible with him? :)

I wonder if anyone has called Linus 'fucking stupid' (etc.) on the mailing lists, and how Linus reacted.

Re: Linus on "acting professionally"

#54

Post by kroger »

claudius wrote: post #35
Ygg2 wrote: post #17

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Just gonna post these two gems I found at a previous thread about Linus ( https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=6050443 ): http://linux.slashdot.org/comments.pl?sid=3977141&cid=442916... http://linux.slashdot.org/comments.pl?sid=3977141&cid=442909... To me Linus is kinda like Wagner, I do like and enjoy his work, but as a person he is not someone I'd aspire to emulate.

Regarding the last bit, I don’t quite see the point. If I had a wife and she ripped off the sink, put a plastic tub there and called it an improvement, because the metal in the sink could rust, I would be quite clear with her that I think this is a ludicrously stupid idea and she should feel extremely dumb for even thinking of it, her being my wife or not. (Nitpick: Do you mean Richard Wagner or someone called Vagner…

He means Richard Wagner. His music is fantastic but he was a racist [1].

[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Richard_Wagner#Racism_and_anti...

Re: Linus on "acting professionally"

#55

Post by Ygg2 »

claudius wrote: post #35
Ygg2 wrote: post #17

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Just gonna post these two gems I found at a previous thread about Linus ( https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=6050443 ): http://linux.slashdot.org/comments.pl?sid=3977141&cid=442916... http://linux.slashdot.org/comments.pl?sid=3977141&cid=442909... To me Linus is kinda like Wagner, I do like and enjoy his work, but as a person he is not someone I'd aspire to emulate.

Regarding the last bit, I don’t quite see the point. If I had a wife and she ripped off the sink, put a plastic tub there and called it an improvement, because the metal in the sink could rust, I would be quite clear with her that I think this is a ludicrously stupid idea and she should feel extremely dumb for even thinking of it, her being my wife or not. (Nitpick: Do you mean Richard Wagner or someone called Vagner…

Point is if you are going to be totally honest, that marriage won't work off really well. You need to be honest about some things but some small things you need to overlook (like her snooring, or eating her caked blood, or smoking or etc.).

If she did that, I'd definitely say it is a stupid/bad idea because X, Y, Z and move along. She just lacks context/knowledge why it is a stupid idea. If she is dimwitted to a point that she doesn't understand even when it's explained, I'd try to find a new wife.

Note: meant Wagner, and it's fixed.

Re: Linus on "acting professionally"

#56

Post by jonahx »

stephenr wrote: post #22
ealexhudson wrote: post #11

Linus is dead wrong here. When he says acting professionally means "fake politeness, the lying, the office politics and backstabbing, the passive aggressiveness, and the buzzwords", he's attacking a straw man: none of that behaviour is professional, and to say that professional behaviour must degenerate to that behaviour is a stretch at best. Aggression is not warranted in a professional environment; neither overt (a…

You've obviously never worked in an office, or you have taken a big step away from reality. The things Linus mentions are what happens as a result of supposed "professionalism". People are emotional, reactionary creatures with very different needs. These people are kernel developers, not 4 year olds. If they commit code that is fucking stupid, they should be called fucking stupid for it. As was shown on a recent post…

this is a false dichotomy.

it's possible to be succint, harsh, and directly to the point without swearing or being abusive. for example, off the top of my head:

"stephen, this code is riddled with basic errors and is completely unacceptable. please fix a, b, and c immediately and know that if you make mistakes like this again, your contributions will no longer be welcome."

versus:

"stephen, WHAT THE FUCK IS WRONG WITH YOU??!?! seriously, a FUCKING JUNIOR DEV would not make mistakes like this. why are you wasting my time with this FUCKING BULLSHIT? FIX IT NOW OR YOU'RE FIRED!"

imagine in both cases the person writing to you has only a professional relationship (ie, is not a friend who has the type of relationship with you where the 2nd paragraph would be an establish, half-joking form of communication)

Re: Linus on "acting professionally"

#57

Post by vacri »

Ygg2 wrote: post #17
ealexhudson wrote: post #11

Linus is dead wrong here. When he says acting professionally means "fake politeness, the lying, the office politics and backstabbing, the passive aggressiveness, and the buzzwords", he's attacking a straw man: none of that behaviour is professional, and to say that professional behaviour must degenerate to that behaviour is a stretch at best. Aggression is not warranted in a professional environment; neither overt (a…

Just gonna post these two gems I found at a previous thread about Linus ( https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=6050443 ): http://linux.slashdot.org/comments.pl?sid=3977141&cid=442916... http://linux.slashdot.org/comments.pl?sid=3977141&cid=442909... To me Linus is kinda like Wagner, I do like and enjoy his work, but as a person he is not someone I'd aspire to emulate.

Both of those links have comments that chide Torvalds for not being polite... and then call him names. Such hypocrisy.

edit: hrm, that rather seems your point in linking them.

Re: Linus on "acting professionally"

#58

Post by arrrg »

ealexhudson wrote: post #11

Linus is dead wrong here. When he says acting professionally means "fake politeness, the lying, the office politics and backstabbing, the passive aggressiveness, and the buzzwords", he's attacking a straw man: none of that behaviour is professional, and to say that professional behaviour must degenerate to that behaviour is a stretch at best. Aggression is not warranted in a professional environment; neither overt (a…

I also don't really understand how not abusing other people is somehow fake politeness. I mean, who's to say that the abuse isn't fake abuse? This distinction just makes no sense at all to me.

Re: Linus on "acting professionally"

#59

Post by djm_ »

claudius wrote: post #35
Ygg2 wrote: post #17

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Just gonna post these two gems I found at a previous thread about Linus ( https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=6050443 ): http://linux.slashdot.org/comments.pl?sid=3977141&cid=442916... http://linux.slashdot.org/comments.pl?sid=3977141&cid=442909... To me Linus is kinda like Wagner, I do like and enjoy his work, but as a person he is not someone I'd aspire to emulate.

Regarding the last bit, I don’t quite see the point. If I had a wife and she ripped off the sink, put a plastic tub there and called it an improvement, because the metal in the sink could rust, I would be quite clear with her that I think this is a ludicrously stupid idea and she should feel extremely dumb for even thinking of it, her being my wife or not. (Nitpick: Do you mean Richard Wagner or someone called Vagner…

>she should feel extremely dumb for even thinking of it.

I feel sorry for her and you haven't even found her yet.

Re: Linus on "acting professionally"

#60

Post by nawitus »

jonahx wrote: post #32
sz4kerto wrote: post #12

The reason why Linus (or anybody else) might want to act 'professionally' (or nicely, whatever) is because some people feel bad when they are shouted at. It's completely valid to argue that shouting is just a culturally different, but acceptable way of expressing one's thoughts but then you need to be aware that you'll potentially lose people who just simply hate this form of communication. So this discussion is not…

>because some people feel bad when they are shouted at. while people tolerate it at different levels, the phrase "some people" is misleading: almost nobody likes to be shouted at, or even feels neutral about it. >It's completely valid to argue that shouting is just a culturally different, but acceptable way of expressing one's thoughts but then you need to be aware that you'll potentially lose people who just simply…

>while people tolerate it at different levels, the phrase "some people" is misleading: almost nobody likes to be shouted at, or even feels neutral about it.

Well, most people don't like criticism either, even when it's constructive. Some things are necessary even if people dislike them, but I don't think shouting is like that.

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