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What is Happening in Istanbul?

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Re: What is Happening in Istanbul?

#471
post #464
post #461

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If you think the worst is a one-party state, you've not been following the news. The worst is that Erdogan completes his mission : turning turkey in a middle-eastern islamic dictatorship where women are beaten for walking on the street and every tiniest bit of culture dies, violently and with beheadings.

You are joking right? Tell me one thing you could do 5,10,20 years ago and cannot do now that supports your future predictions. I am excluding drinking booze in public places.

The press could report on these events 10 years ago. Now they don't. The workers could celebrate May day in Taksim square just a few years ago, this year they were banned. People could express themselves more freely if they were not religious or if they were against the government. Now they fear retaliation, losing their job etc. This actually happened to journalists, they did lose their jobs. Hundreds are imprisoned without being convicted or even having a trial for months and years.

There are other indications that Turkey is turning into an Islamic (Sunni in particular) state and our culture is being destroyed. Scientists and artists are ridiculed routinely by the politicians in power. They destroyed Turkish Academy of Sciences. They shut down Feza Gürsey institute. They fired majority of people who made Pardus GNU/Linux distribution and Göktürk satellite from TÜBİTAK.

Unfortunately, this is no joke.

Re: What is Happening in Istanbul?

#472

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm both curious and a little teasing here: Where do you live? I'm talking from the perspective of a (leftist) German who wanted to relocate to Singapore (Wife said no) and lived in Tel Aviv. I've never been to the States, because quite frankly I feel the trip would cost me more 'freedom' than I'm comfortable to part with. Note that I comment on things I know only online/through the news/from talks with friends. That…

I live in the US (bay area) now, but I've lived for significant periods of time in the middle east and asia in the past. I know the US gets a bad rap as far as personal freedom is concerned (high incarceration rate, capital punishment, etc) and this is indeed an issue in some other places in the US where I've lived, but I love it here in the bay area. You should try it for a bit and see what you think. Interestingly,…

The bad rap is deserved. But the US is so large you can live there your whole life without running into any issues if you're lucky, so don't imagine loving it where you are means there aren't major issues. Swing over to Oakland and you'll probably see some.

Re: What is Happening in Istanbul?

#473
post #263
post #228

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Well said. I'm a techie but I also have a protest past (don't actively engage in that anymore but support in other ways) and I wasn't aware of the situation in Singapore. I think we saw a lot of this in the US after 9/11 when Bush went from being a 1-term joke to suddenly having clout. What many younger people here might not know is that only 12 years ago, life in the US was different. You could board planes without…

> In the first few weeks after, there was a growing feeling that maybe this was finally the time that the US would straighten out and take a deep and serious look at our own actions and policies. I agree we did overreact, but this sentence is just nonsense. Are you really implying that our actions and policies are what caused muslims to hate us, and that therefor we should change them???????????

Yes, obviously. What did you imagine it was? Something mind-numbingly ignorant like "they hate us for our freedoms"?

Re: What is Happening in Istanbul?

#474
post #464

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You are joking right? Tell me one thing you could do 5,10,20 years ago and cannot do now that supports your future predictions. I am excluding drinking booze in public places.

The press could report on these events 10 years ago. Now they don't. The workers could celebrate May day in Taksim square just a few years ago, this year they were banned. People could express themselves more freely if they were not religious or if they were against the government. Now they fear retaliation, losing their job etc. This actually happened to journalists , they did lose their jobs. Hundreds are imprisone…

This was a personal question actually.

I am no supporter of current Government, but most things you say can be counter-answered.

- Some press reports things less than you like. Some reports with exaggeration. Blame the first group if you want for their cowardice. If second group is alive and kicking, your point is proven to be false.

- Taksim Square was actually totally closed to 1st of May events from 1978 to 2010 . It was this government allowed opening it again. This year there is construction so it was not allowed. I remember the horror in Kadikoy in 1996 tough.

"People could express themselves more freely if they were not religious or if they were against the government. Now they fear retaliation, losing their job etc." This is just your opinion. I cannot really prove the opposite either. Nepotism is there tough, and cannot be avoided regardless of any government.

Journalism issue is problematic and a shame. Most are really PKK related and probably this will change. I cannot say this is something new tough.

"Scientists and artists are ridiculed routinely by the politicians in power" they push each others wrong buttons, and politicians are less tolerable indeed. But apart from 1-2 incidents this cannot be generalized. It is a shame that PM does not have a sense of humor.

To me, Turkish Academy of Sciences issue is overrated. "Most" guys there weren't doing anything useful in terms of science there anyway. They continue their work in universities or in Tubitak without a loss. Handling of Science and Technology by this government can be criticized but for better or worse, they pour perhaps x10 more money on R&D than previous governments.

Do not know what really happened behind pardus and Gokturk issue. Sattelite is on the sky and Pardus turned to Debian, that is what I know.

Re: What is Happening in Istanbul?

#475
post #447

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"The scariest dystopias are not hideous hellscapes where nobody would want to live, as those tend to self-destruct or at best persist in tiny enclaves and never catch on." This seems to be the sort of opinion only a person who does not live in said hideous hellscape could support. While I (Singaporean) do not agree with everything the government does, I would definitely much rather live here than in North Korea.

I think he's saying "scariest in the long run," because the worst sort are (of course) much worse in the short run, but are less likely to last very long.

I sincerely doubt the sum total of human misery caused by the government in Singapore will ever exceed that caused by that of the North Korean government.

Re: What is Happening in Istanbul?

#476
post #289

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> "caused muslims to hate us" Well, that's a few simultaneous fallacies. But, yes, your policies led to the 9/11 attackers deciding to attack you. Is this not blisteringly obvious? > and that therefor we should change them??????????? Oh gosh no, change? Not mid-stream.

> But, yes, your policies led to the 9/11 attackers deciding to attack you. Is this not blisteringly obvious? In exactly the same way that wearing miniskirts leads to rape. Take for example UBL's main grievance: the presence of the international Desert Shield force, or as UBL put it, allowing infidels to live in the land of the two holy cities. That force was there at the request of King Saud of Arabia. So what makes…

> same way that wearing miniskirts leads to rape.

No, not at all. That's the dumbest thing someone has said on here in weeks. You should be ashamed.

The miniskirt analogy is to describe someone innocent and helpless!

> That force was there at the request of King Saud

Wow, who could disagree with a monarch? Especially an oil-rich one looking for foreign protectors.

> What justifies forbidding people from holding any other religious belief than the approved one?

Nobody is. This is where you can't stand to lose so you start lying and throwing in irrelevant things.

> What makes Usama bin Laden the superior authority to say who is allowed to live in Arabia?

What makes you the authority? Bush is more of a religious fanatic, and killed over two-hundred times more people than Osama.

Anyways, yes, they did attack you for things you did. You can act like a child "I'm just swinging my fist - too bad if it hits your nose" or you can realize the impacts of your actions, and that yes, people will react to them. Even if you disagree you can see learn to see it coming.

Re: What is Happening in Istanbul?

#477
This article is grossly misleading. Papers and televisions are showing what is going on, one can read from internet, and express his opinion. Turkey is a democracy with multi party system similar to France since 1946. Unfortunately the minority group who held the power in Turkey for decades lost their control of most of the government and state after years of corruption with 2002 elections. In 2001 Turkish economy experienced a similar economic meltdown after a "soft" coup of the people who support and make the current demonstrations. The economic repercussions was so deep it effected almost everyone similar to what has been going on in Greece and Spain. Since then the new government handled economy and democratic process so well, even in the current terrible economic situation of the world Turkey managed to become the fastest growing economy in Europe. Turkey has made the last debt payment to IMF couple of weeks ago. For the first time her existence Turkish economy's credit rating became investment grade by Moody's on May 17th this year[1]. Most importantly the clash with the Kurdish minority ended with a new peace process. This is by far the most important achievement of the current government given the 30 years of history of violence in South Easy of Turkey. Over 40K people have died since it started in 1980.

The person who wrote this article and those demonstrators are hoping to show their anger towards the government akin to Egypt's Tahrir Square demonstrations. However this is all reading it backwards. Current government is popularly supported by the people and the support has increased with each consecutive poll since 2002, leading to 50% [3] of the popular vote the last time. This government is leading a commission and effort to write a new constituition to raise the standards of human rights in Turkey. This is one of the biggest selling point to end the Kurdish violence since they now feel their rights will be protected better in the future. Current constitution is put together in 1980 by the people who engineered the last "hard" coup in Turkey [5], a coup literally executed with brute force, guns and tanks. With this government the efforts to get into EU increased tremendously [6] and actually it has been their strategy to balance the power in Turkey against Military's long standing anti-democratic ambitions and practices.

Recent demonstrations at a park in Istanbul got bigger by exploiting the grossly wrong police brutality. Unfortunately where there is demonstration be it in US [7], Spain [8] or Greece [9], in any country the police is very heavy handed. Otherwise the park that is in middle of the city is part of project [10] that will transform the area and close all the motor vehicle traffic and allow only pedestrians. This is going to be done by diverting traffic to underground roads that will be build as part of the project. Decision for the project taken by the people who was elected including members both from ruling and opposition party, and was voted unanimously.

Author of this article and those demonstrators are supporting the old regime. A regime that dictates certain ideology build around a cult leader like the ones in former Soviet Union, China and North Korea. Ours is Ataturk. You have to think like them, act like them, speak like them, live like them. During my mandatory military service I was forced to memorize who is Ataturk which was a list of 10 items that goes like this: 1) Ataturk was the best person in the world 2) Ataturk was best statesman in the world 3) Ataturk is the best military leader in the world. And thise list goes on and on...

Let me give you an example of what this people againts. Can you buy liquor after certain hours in States? Can you walk with an open beer can, alcohol bottle? No, because in States, varying by state, shops can not sell alcohol after 10pm or 2am. For example in England even places where liquor served as part of the service has to close by 1am. When this government made a similar, banning sale of alchol from 10pm to 6am, these people made a big noise. This is one of the arguments they have been telling during these demonstrations.

[1] http://www.bloomberg.com/news/2013-05-16/turkey-raised-to-in... [2] http://www.hrw.org/news/2013/04/25/turkey-justice-central-ku... [3] http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-13740147 [4] http://www.bloomberg.com/news/2013-05-10/turkey-s-kurtulmus-... [5] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1980_Turkish_coup_d%C3%A9tat [6] http://www.cfr.org/turkey/turkeys-eu-bid/p8939 [7] http://www.sfgate.com/bayarea/article/UC-Davis-pepper-spraye... [8] http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2012/sep/29/spain-riot-polic... [9] http://www.businessinsider.com/greek-police-brutality-2011-6 [10] http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Opean5HeR-8

Re: What is Happening in Istanbul?

#478

Loath as I am to cite Buzzfeed, but: the images of the people on the bridge are not from these protests. They are from the 2012 Istanbul Marathon. http://www.buzzfeed.com/hunterschwarz/one-of-the-most-popula...

One image that has been associated with the protests is actually of the marathon. If you see a photo with only one lane of traffic blocked and the other flowing, it is not from the marathon.

The bridge pictures here appear to be legit. http://www.rightnow.io/breaking-news/turkey_bn_1369752659185...

Re: What is Happening in Istanbul?

#479
post #369

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Or the government sneaked in their people to delegitimize the protesters. This is a well known way police or covert agencies work. Usually if protesters are well versed in such tactics the ring of strongest forms the ring around rest of the mass to protect them from interlopers that would give police a provocation they needed to attack the protesters or to delegimitize them.

How very convenient. Hand-wave it away: Maybe the police did it. Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence.

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