Earlier quoted context omitted.
I looked at the video again. If you look it in slow motion, you can see that there is another man crouching in the back. Although the man in the front might not be visible to the tank driver, the one behind should be and has no shield. Also, just before the impact the tank fires the water cannon in the exact direction of the two. Might be a coincidence or a proof they saw them. But even in the event they did not see…
> If you look it in slow motion, There is slow motion on youtube?
What is Happening in Istanbul?
281–290 of 519 posts
Re: What is Happening in Istanbul?
#282Earlier quoted context omitted.
Doesn't that just sound like "we're" pro citizen?
Any half-competent political hack can spin anything so it's "pro citizen". A staggering proportion of citizens are in favour for the privacy/security trade off, it's just that We Know Better(tm). Of course Google and Apple should pay their fair share, I just can't get excited about it, I don't see how adding more money to the same semi-corrupt deeply immoral special interests buffet that brought you SOPA, and simulta…
Re: What is Happening in Istanbul?
#283All the media and reddit pictures are from the side of the protesters, a few pictures of people who get knocked in the head with a tear gas container != cops beating and shooting innocent people as they would have you believe.
Also from empirical evidence as an American who spent two weeks in Istanbul last year I've found the city and police to be totally welcoming and open ... to include bar crawls around taksim, walking 20 miles on foot through every nieghborhood in the city, to visiting some of the holiest artifacts in Islam at topkapi palace.
I'd like to see the other side of this... I understand the government has been culling the ranks of the top military to weaken their influence and push the Islamist agenda.. I do, but that said, turkey is not syria or iraq, it is a large cosmopolitan and wonderful country I would hate to see it destroyed.
Edit: I'll add for reference if it matters I'm a large, shaved headed and tattooed, obviously american man, who was a solo traveler.
Re: What is Happening in Istanbul?
#284> The government is looking for (and creating when necessary) any excuse to attack Syria against its people’s will. Wait, I thought Syria/Assad is the bad guy. The Turkish people support Assad but the Turkish government doesn't? Now I'm confused.
Re: What is Happening in Istanbul?
#285Since I see that some friends have got excited about the recent events in Turkey I decided to write something about it and provide some context. I think it is good to know a bit of history of Turkey before AKP to understand what is going on there. It has been more than 10 years that AKP is in power so people might not know or may have forgotten the situation before AKP.
Turkey was ruled by ultra-nationalist ultra-secular militarist groups for decades. The military overthrow several elected governments and jailed politicians. Torture, extra-judicial killings, suppression, and corruption were widespread. The laws that people often object to are from that area and the constitution written by Turkish military, including insulting Turkishness being a crime. These groups who are sometimes referred to as Kemalists had the control of military, judicatory, academia, media, etc. Yet, they couldn't tolerate even the government being in the hands of people they didn't like. The large majority of Turks who are practicing Muslims were excluded. It was illegal to wear a head-scarf in universities and government departments in a country where over 70% of women wears head-scarf. Essentially these women were banned from attending university. Public officials and even university professors would be thrown out and even jailed if they showed any sign of nonsecular tendency. Writers and intellects were jailed for expressing opinions against Kemalist ideology. Erdogan, the current prime minister was jailed and banned from politics for 10 years for reading an old poem while he was the mayor of Istanbul. The existence of Kurds who are around 20 percent of Turkey's population were completely denied (not a joke)! Speaking or reading in Kurdish was banned and the popular Turkish singer Ahmad Kaya was forced to exile for saying that he will record an album in Kurdish. Popular political parties were closed regularly even when they won elections decisively. The news of corruption in police and politics was a regular daily routine as was the news of human rights violations.
In the years before AKP there were several short-lived governments by parties both on the left and on the right. Inflation was very high (hyperinflation), unemployment was high, governments were unstable. The value of Turkish lira dropped to a third in one night. Nightly interest rates tripled to completely ridiculous amount of 139%. You can look at Greece these days to have an idea of Turkey of that time. Turkish foreign policy was essentially dictated by the US government. There was a very harsh IMF imposed economic program so Turkey could pay its debts and a technocrat from world bank was imposed as the economy minister on the Turkish government to make sure they will implement what IMF wanted. The government and the country were in such a bad shape that it is almost unimaginable today after 12 years of AKP.
AKP was formed at that time. Erdogan was still under the ban from politics as well as many prominent politicians from his previous party. But some other politicians from the party were not under the ban. They created a new party: AKP (Justice and Development Party). Its members were moderate and pragmatist politicians from the banned party plus several other pragmatist and moderates from other right of the center parties. The current Turkish President Gul became the head of the party though Erdogan was significantly involved behind the senses. The party won a landslide election and has been continuously doing so for over a decade, increasing its share of votes in every election. You have to know that the length of Turkish governments before AKP to get a feeling of its significance: a few months!
Over a decade AKP has modernized Turkey, removed many of the laws that EU objected to, fought corruption in police and politics, improved the economy to its current amazing state, forced military out of politics, ... Until Syrian crises it had perfect relations with its neighbors. It followed what I would consider an awesome independent foreign policy. It is trying to find a political solution to the Kurdish "problem" and the right of Kurds have improved significantly under AKP. The list of AKP's achievements can go on.
So what is the problem? The problem is that the support base of AKP is not the western oriented seculars, it is the conservative majority who didn't have a voice in politics for decades (the silent majority) as the Kemalist and what Turks call "Deep Government" didn't allow the political parties supported by them. In all elections AKP has lost in the touristic Mediterranean coastal cities and European parts. You can find the map of the last general election results here:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Turkish_general_election,_2011
Yellow is AKP, red is CHP, and light green is MHP. The south eastern parts are Kurdish areas where independent Kurdish politicians won.
The protests that you see these days are by this secular minority who has been voting for CHP (around 25%, significant, but still a minority).
Now, what are these alternative parties?
MHP is an ultra-nationalist racist conservative far-right party. Look up Wikipedia if you want to know more about them.
CHP is the party of the founder of the Turkey, ruled Turkey for decades in a one-party system, is a Kemalist party. It had strong relations with Turkish military, right now it is essentially the party supported by the elite who ruled Turkey before AKP and their supporters. The elite tried to topple AKP government undemocratically. Try to see if they objected to continuous serious violations of human rights before AKP.
Obviously I don't agree with everything that AKP and Erdogan do. However, AKP (and Erdogan) is definitely the best thing that has happened to Turkey over many decades, and Turks know it. That is the reason AKP keeps increasing its share of vote in elections. They are creating a strong developed democratic lawful independent Turkey. When you hear about protests in Turkey against AKP and Erdogan being authoritarian it is good to remember this context.
One final thing: AKP is often criticized for ignoring secular Turkish citizens who have not voted for AKP. Watch Erdogan's victory speech after winning the last election in which AKP further increased its share of votes. His attitude was completely humble and reconciliatory.
The problem, in my humble opinion, is not Erdogan and AKP being arrogant and authoritarian, but rather the secular minority demanding more than their fair share. I mean they objected to the removal of the ban on head-scarves for students attending university and consider it Islamization of Turkey (a country where over 70% of women wears head-scarf).
Re: What is Happening in Istanbul?
#286Earlier quoted context omitted.
my memory is a bit hazy but wasn't the most dangerous part of agent orange the fact that it was contaminated with very toxic dioxins rather than the toxic properties of 'clean' agent orange? Why would Turkey resort to chemical warfare when they don't have to, why risk the wrath of the international community when you can 'just' use tear gas and such?
Yes, you are correct. The active ingredient in Agent Orange is routinely in use for weed control. > > It is incredibly toxic and forbidden by the UN after the horrific effects it had on both the Vietnamese and Americans exposed to it. It's not forbidden by the UN, the active ingredient is 2,4-D and is the 3rd most used herbicide in america. The other ingredient 2,4,5-T is non toxic, but making it commonly contaminate…
I still haven't heard anything about it actually being used there, but would that seem at all reasonable to you? A police force that uses tear gas and don't want to kill people, would they plausibly use such a derivative for the same purpose?
Re: What is Happening in Istanbul?
#287Earlier quoted context omitted.
Well said. I'm a techie but I also have a protest past (don't actively engage in that anymore but support in other ways) and I wasn't aware of the situation in Singapore. I think we saw a lot of this in the US after 9/11 when Bush went from being a 1-term joke to suddenly having clout. What many younger people here might not know is that only 12 years ago, life in the US was different. You could board planes without…
> In the first few weeks after, there was a growing feeling that maybe this was finally the time that the US would straighten out and take a deep and serious look at our own actions and policies. I agree we did overreact, but this sentence is just nonsense. Are you really implying that our actions and policies are what caused muslims to hate us, and that therefor we should change them???????????
Re: What is Happening in Istanbul?
#288Earlier quoted context omitted.
Go to Singapore. Litter. http://3.bp.blogspot.com/-CRiqfOMVC74/T69l6BH1vVI/AAAAAAAAL8... What bubble are you living in because it desperately needs to be popped.
Are you seriously trying to say you can get caned for littering in Singapore? It is exactly this kind of ignorant statement spoken as if it were fact that irks me.
>Singapore also differs from the United States where penalties are determined by a judge;breaking certain laws in Singapore can come with mandatory decisions that still include cane beatings.
At least attempt some research
Re: What is Happening in Istanbul?
#289Earlier quoted context omitted.
Well said. I'm a techie but I also have a protest past (don't actively engage in that anymore but support in other ways) and I wasn't aware of the situation in Singapore. I think we saw a lot of this in the US after 9/11 when Bush went from being a 1-term joke to suddenly having clout. What many younger people here might not know is that only 12 years ago, life in the US was different. You could board planes without…
> In the first few weeks after, there was a growing feeling that maybe this was finally the time that the US would straighten out and take a deep and serious look at our own actions and policies. I agree we did overreact, but this sentence is just nonsense. Are you really implying that our actions and policies are what caused muslims to hate us, and that therefor we should change them???????????
Well, that's a few simultaneous fallacies.
But, yes, your policies led to the 9/11 attackers deciding to attack you. Is this not blisteringly obvious?
> and that therefor we should change them???????????
Oh gosh no, change? Not mid-stream.
Re: What is Happening in Istanbul?
#290Earlier quoted context omitted.
When I see stories like this, I'm always impressed at the wide availability of gas masks. Are we even allowed to own those in the States?* *Yes, I know how sad of a question that is.
Of course we're "allowed" to own them in the United States... Despite what people on reddit, and other fringe internet forums would have you believe, The United States has some of the strongest personal liberties in the world.
Adorable. Try actually exercising them and get back to us.