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What is Happening in Istanbul?

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Re: What is Happening in Istanbul?

#371
post #176

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Of course we're "allowed" to own them in the United States... Despite what people on reddit, and other fringe internet forums would have you believe, The United States has some of the strongest personal liberties in the world.

> Despite what people on reddit, and other fringe internet forums would have you believe, The United States has some of the strongest personal liberties in the world. I must disagree. Any government that would prohibit free agriculture is already on the road to tyranny. Every dictatorship, no matter its form, allows for the existence of some personal liberties as it limits the rest.

Freedom from "raw" milk, or freedom from your neighbour deciding to start a pig farm or drain your shared aquifer for irrigation?

Re: What is Happening in Istanbul?

#372
post #348

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Don't forget the right to kill people and the right to pollute the environment. Singapore doesn't allow those either.

So, are you suggesting a) that in the USA you are _legally_ allowed to kill others and to pollute? or b) that no, the USA doesn't legally allow that, but in practice it does (any stats on how many guilty people got off the hook?) or what?

There is a difference between laws based on principle, and laws based on observation. I think Singapore has been a model based on empirical observation -- tightly controlled, but prosperous and happy (vague terms, admittedly), despite what most people think (I think most of the people on HN hating on Singapore have actually never been there, let alone know anyone from there).

Contrast this with the USA, whose laws are (supposedly -- it has been much more complex since the Great Depression) based on principle, on a Western logic that, I believe, still holds strong. It is beautiful, as many writers have shown. In past years I have been a great appreciator of this, having held strong libertarian and even anarcho-capitalist values (not a part of the Ayn Rand hype train, I assure you).

But politico-economic systems are much more complex, human nature so rich, that logic and rhetoric cannot fully capture, perhaps ever. As of late I've read a bit more into histories of Communism in the last 100 years, looked at alternative systems of government. And I just don't think the victory and purity of Western idealism -- that it is the One Way, the Only Way -- is as valid as most of us think. There is that banal idea that "Communism works on paper, but not in reality", but I am gradually leaning towards replacing "Communism" with Capitalism.

I know we cannot really compare the Nordic models of governance with Singapore, but I think they, like Singapore, also incorporate many political ideas based on empirical observation, rather than stubborn insistence of value systems.

Unfortunately even the USA isn't so pure. There are so many systems of principles now, that clash all the time -- and they themselves have changed drastically from the USA of 100 years ago. Thus the Libertarian argument still stands. I think the question is, does that Argument even matter?

Re: What is Happening in Istanbul?

#373

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I hate to reply to a comment like this, but for anyone new to HN, these folks come out whenever Singapore is mentioned in a negative light. For a previous rendition: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=2621371

I hate to say this but I really think ignorant statements about Singapore need to be nipped in the bud.

Thus revealing your affinity for how governmental politics should work, which makes it not so surprising you are pro-Singapore.

I think people should be able to say whatever ignorant things they want to say, and their ignorance should be displayed by stating facts countering their arguments, rather than censoring them or simply shouting them down with substance-free statements.

Re: What is Happening in Istanbul?

#374

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"people decide to just blow themselves up for _no_ reason" = they have established a coherent subsect of Islam which teaches that Islam requires they forever be waging war against the nonbelievers and which celebrates dying in such a war as the highest honor, giving them a very clear reason that anyone with open eyes is well aware of by now. "Jihad means war only. Fighting, with the sword." - Abdullah Azzam. "The Qur…

There's a billion muslims, and most of them don't believe this. I could find 5 people's quotations to cast pretty much any group in a bad light.

Indeed. I bet I could quote some Westboro Baptist Church-goers, and Christianity would look disgusting.

Re: What is Happening in Istanbul?

#375

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Wow. I am speechless. As someone who was born and raised in Turkey, and visited Singapore for long periods of time, let me say very clearly: you have absolutely no idea what you're talking about. Turkey and Singapore are two completely different worlds, with different histories, cultures, and geopolitical situations, and are not related in any shape or form. There may be a few surface-level parallels, but that's wher…

"Singapore is one of the least corrupt countries in the world." You should ask Shane Todd about that.

The latest as of May is that suicide is much more likely than foul play. See the last paragraph in the introduction on Wikipedia (beginning with "A different picture"): http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Death_of_Shane_Todd

Re: What is Happening in Istanbul?

#376

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It depends whether you think it is ok for the government: - to ban chewing gum - to publicly cane people (limited to "6 strokes" for women, how nice) - to enforce capital punishment (i.e. killing people for allegedly killing people) - to limit your rights to criticize your government - etc ...provided that it guarantees you good money. There is nothing inherently wrong with your point of view, and I have many friends…

I'm both curious and a little teasing here: Where do you live? I'm talking from the perspective of a (leftist) German who wanted to relocate to Singapore (Wife said no) and lived in Tel Aviv. I've never been to the States, because quite frankly I feel the trip would cost me more 'freedom' than I'm comfortable to part with. Note that I comment on things I know only online/through the news/from talks with friends. That…

I live in the US (bay area) now, but I've lived for significant periods of time in the middle east and asia in the past.

I know the US gets a bad rap as far as personal freedom is concerned (high incarceration rate, capital punishment, etc) and this is indeed an issue in some other places in the US where I've lived, but I love it here in the bay area.

You should try it for a bit and see what you think. Interestingly, I'm planning to move to Europe, most likely Germany :) and live there for a bit to see what that's like.

Re: What is Happening in Istanbul?

#377

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It depends whether you think it is ok for the government: - to ban chewing gum - to publicly cane people (limited to "6 strokes" for women, how nice) - to enforce capital punishment (i.e. killing people for allegedly killing people) - to limit your rights to criticize your government - etc ...provided that it guarantees you good money. There is nothing inherently wrong with your point of view, and I have many friends…

I don't know, I wonder if something like public caning might be a more humane and more effective option than sentencing people to anal rape. (Which is de facto what often happens in the US).

You do raise an interesting point. I think calling jail time what you called it is a bit extreme but yeah, lots and lots of people do get thrown in jail here.

I don't have a good answer as to what I would consider "just punishment" by the state for things like robbery, etc. However, throwing someone in jail for littering is certainly extreme.

Re: What is Happening in Istanbul?

#378

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Despite what people on reddit, and other fringe internet forums would have you believe, The United States has some of the strongest personal liberties in the world. I must disagree. Any government that would prohibit free agriculture is already on the road to tyranny. Every dictatorship, no matter its form, allows for the existence of some personal liberties as it limits the rest.

Freedom from "raw" milk, or freedom from your neighbour deciding to start a pig farm or drain your shared aquifer for irrigation?

How about starting with something as simple as being able to grow hemp without being threatened by various police?

The US has been a developing economic police state since at least the 1930's.

Re: What is Happening in Istanbul?

#379
post #305

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Then this comment of yours doesn't make much sense: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=5802911 Do you still think this means "fuck-all"? (And again: Just trying to get a clear picture of what it is you're saying.)

I meant it as in the regime won't resign because of these riots.

Well, reading your comment, especially in the light of how distraught Erdogan seemed in his 1.5 interview with Fatih Altayli, it definitely seems off. Also, Erdogan's party is not a homogenous block, although he's holding everybody in check right now. Even now, some dissident voices among AKP intelligentsia started worrying about the loss of support.

Assuming the government will go after a few days of riots is naive; however, this is a very significant data point for Erdogan.

Re: What is Happening in Istanbul?

#380

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Don't believe him. It is basically full of lies, albeit written with a very good English. AKP basically used EU as a cover to weaken other significant forces like legal bodies, media, military. Now, they are in phase 2, using their power to crush all others who do not live like them. For example, until late yesterday, there were no major TV channels airing the news. We communicated via Twitter, and the only live broa…

It seems that some of what you are saying is not that different to the claims I was replying to, but with a different interpretation. E.g. you consider weakening the power of legal bodies, the media and the military to be bad, but from their point of view, these bodies were supporting an undemocratic power structure that favored the pro-secular minority. On alcohol, there is not a blanket ban, but fairly strict restr…

We are not against lifting of the head-scarfs. His proponents try to paint us, the protestors, as traces of that tradition so that they can still play the part of the wounded. As to his Islamist plans, he is quite open about them. He basically emphasizes in his every speech that their aim is to bring the pious youth of the Ottoman empire.

The legal bodies and free media are fundamental for any democracy. As I said before, AKP gov't used EU-restrictions to crush legal bodies and military, but then after they reached their goals turned their back on the EU since the main goal was different. As to the freedom of media, I think we can agree that it is vital for any democracy and just the fact that these events are not being televised are proof how powerless they are. There are journalists working in the media, who have to share international links since their own TVs cannot show the events.

About his antidemocratic ideals, just from his talks today:

- (when talking about his decision to build a mosque in Taksim) We will build it, whether you like it or not. Decision is made. I will not ask these looters (referring to the hundreds of thousands of protestors) whether to build it or not. - Twitter is a menace. http://www.thetimes.co.uk/tto/news/world/europe/article37807... - You gathered 20,000 people. It is not an issue for me to gather 200,000 people. If you gather 100,000 people, it will not be an issue for me to gather 1,000,000 people. - (Referring to advertisers who have decided to cut their ads from TVs who are not showing the events) I have started an investigation about which companies these are.

His thought on democracy can be summed up as thus: The elections take place. The party who wins the majority can do whatever it pleases until the next elections, since that vote has given them that right. There is no need to reach consensus on any affair. The parliament in Turkey is basically powerless, since they hold the majority and can pass any law they want. He sees democracy as a winner takes all game, that only takes place every 4 years, not as a daily part of life.

Democracy is not a system where the majority can do whatever it wants. It is only a democracy if it can protect and respect the rights of every voter.

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