What is Happening in Istanbul?

the US is more dystopian than singapore, if you ask me.

have you ever been to singapore?

"We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness."

I'm not quoting that at you to be self-righteous. I'm using it to illustrate that most people in the world seem to believe that political freedom is considered a good in and of itself. At least in the US, anyway- it's in our mission statement. It's not just a good thing, but one of The Good Things, that's worthy of being pursued independent of wealth.

You seem to consider liberty as a means to an end. That's a perfectly fine viewpoint, but I think you should recognize that you're not debating about singapore, but about that underlying assumption.

Wow.

I am speechless.

As someone who was born and raised in Turkey, and visited Singapore for long periods of time, let me say very clearly: you have absolutely no idea what you're talking about.

Turkey and Singapore are two completely different worlds, with different histories, cultures, and geopolitical situations, and are not related in any shape or form. There may be a few surface-level parallels, but that's where the similarities end.

I am stunned however that a person who very likely has never even visited either place (much less lived in them) has the gall to call what Turkey is going through "Singaporification." I mean, it's not like I haven't noticed the anti-Singaporean sentiments on HN lately - they don't surprise me, since a lot of HN folks are white middle/upper-middle class and lean libertarian[1], which is the exact opposite of Singapore. But using the events in Istanbul as an opportunity to bash Singapore is just... petty and shameless.

I would love to give you a detailed breakdown of the differences between Singapore and Turkey, but that would be an essay. I'll highlight a few important ones.

Singapore is one of the least corrupt countries in the world. Turkey on the other hand is rampant with corruption, especially the current government. That's part of the reason why the protests started: the contractor that was going to build the mall on top of Gezi Park has ties to the Prime Minister, who was going to profit from it. That's just ONE example.

Singapore is extremely diverse culturally. There are several religions and languages. As a result, there are often no culturally accepted behaviors. In a sense, Singapore does not really fit the traditional definition of a nation, and instead has been called a society in transition. In contrast, Turkey has a very strong cultural identity rooted deeply in the country's history and predominant religion, Islam.

The two country's governments are also extremely different. Singapore is a de-facto one-party state; the dominant party, the PAP, has won every single general election since the first one. In contrast, Turkey is a multi-party system, which creates very complex dynamics in the political landscape.

I can go on, but you get the idea. Hopefully.

[1]Table 10 in http://www.cato.org/sites/cato.org/files/pubs/pdf/pa580.pdf

Sure, but he's also making spurious generalizations which appear to owe more to a 1993 William Gibson article than any understanding of the motivations or actions behind Singaporean paternalism or Turkish modern Islamism, which are not at all alike. Throwing in Franco's Spain - certainly the Western European country whose economic policy priorities least resembled Singapore's - doesn't help matters.

Other than a not-uncommon desire to stay in power and grow the economy, Erdogan really doesn't seem to share the same endgame as Singapore's de facto founder. One is a traditional Muslim accused by his critics of undermining the secularist underpinnings of the modern Turkish state; the other an ardent multiculturalist who ended up apologising for a comment suggesting Muslims ought to be less strict in their observances. Erdogan recommends Turkish women need to rear at least three children to "keep the population young" and helped provoke the riots by trying to tighten regulation on abortion. Lee Kuan Yew introduced the "Stop at Two" family planning advocacy campaign and legalised abortion.

Ironically it's values that Singapore's uber-strict legal system has rigidly defended - anti-corruption, state secularism and individual religious freedom - that the Turkish rioters claim motivate their opposition to the Erdogan's government. They've managed to leave more trees intact than central Istanbul too. :)

Could someone explain why my comment about the likely falsehood of the claim that a third plebiscite was introduced less than 8 hours ahead on a holiday in Germany gets downvoted? o.O

(Also note that practically all votes/plebiscites take place on Sundays in Germany so that as many people as possible can vote.)