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What is Happening in Istanbul?

defnesumanblogs.com

441–450 of 519 posts

Re: What is Happening in Istanbul?

#441
post #208
post #158

"These people are my friends. They are my students, my relatives. They have no «hidden agenda» as the state likes to say. Their agenda is out there. It is very clear. The whole country is being sold to corporations by the government, for the construction of malls, luxury condominiums, freeways, dams and nuclear plants. The government is looking for (and creating when necessary) any excuse to attack Syria against its…

> protesting something I call "Singaporification." I love how people always cast Singapore as some kind of horror story cautionary tale. No-one seems to have told the actual people of Singapore, who are perfectly free to leave their nightmarish dystopia at any time, and yet seem perversely inclined to stay. Somehow this obvious, central, crucial fact gets left out of the "we don't want to turn out like Singapore!" na…

> It's a better place to live than 99.9% of these so-called "freedom" countries.

For migrant workers?

For gay people?

Then there's the caning, censorship, draconian drug laws etc. - doesn't seem like that nice a place to live if I'm honest.

Re: What is Happening in Istanbul?

#442
post #307

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You know, actually the US isn't that much freer in practice compared to Singapore. In theory, perhaps. And the reason has less to do with the decline of rugged individualism amongst soccer moms than the existence of a constant low-level background threat, whether from terrorism, a sizable underclass, law enforcement, or (this might be embarassing for some) alcoholism. They don't check IDs for alcohol in Singapore. If…

If you want to see actual practical examples of freedom, you have to go to western Europe. You have to go where? http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/europe/france/1009... I think if you want to see practical examples of freedom, you can conquer your own island and start inventing them. No modern nation is going to tolerate very much of it.

For all its faults the USA has very strong 1st Amendment protections.

I also find it strange that most western European countries outlaw the Nazi party and denying the holocaust. I suspect this only serves to give them more legitimacy in the eyes of society's downtrodden. The American model of dealing with these groups just seems more sustainable. Give them enough room to say all kinds of stupid things.

Le Pen is an ignorant racist. But that doesn't mean we shouldn't give her every opportunity to say all the stupid shit she wants to say.

Re: What is Happening in Istanbul?

#443
Let's shift the conversation _away from_ Singapore and towards what's happening in Turkey (not just Istanbul anymore, in fact, there have been many protests abroad in support).

The original protest was about the ruling party abusing their majority at the polls in such a way that they didn't feel bothered to listen to any opposing view or legitimate concern.

After the unjust and extremely heavy-handed police response, the original protest turned into something much larger, with new support from concerned regular citizens. In fact, since the police response has not become any better, some of the people that voted for the ruling party seem to have changed their positions in support of the protesters.

As a result, I think the Turkish PM lost whatever credibility he had abroad, along with his perceived role as a mediator for the Syrian conflict. I hope these demonstrations conclude in a peaceful way and cause Erdogan to rethink his (obviously limited) understanding of how democracy should work. If not, I'm afraid the country may not be able to hold off the fraction of the Turkish military that would want to step in and take over once again.

Re: What is Happening in Istanbul?

#444

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Interesting map, but I have to question it a bit. I mean, Switzerland is 6th which speaks highly to their local situation, but their banks enable all manner of international corruptions.

Excellent comment - the saga of stolen Jewish stuff took just a wee while to start to be repatriated...

The fact that swiss banks stuck to their rules and required ownership to be established in the normal way even in the wake of such a dramatic tragedy speaks to their incorruptibility.

Re: What is Happening in Istanbul?

#445

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think you probably went through the US education system? US schools brainwash kids into thinking that democracy and freedom to criticize the government are inherently good concepts, but in reality they are only desirable because of the practical effects it may or may not produce. There are no universal morals, and because of that you can't say democracy is inherently "right." So I have to side with your parent and…

I agree that there are no universal morals. I propose this solution: we let everyone follow his own morals as much as possible, and when it's impossible for everyone to be satisfied on a given point, we vote on it. Constitutional democracy is not a denial that people have different morals - it's based on that fact.

Constitutional democracy only works if the whole population agrees to the moral and practical superiority of freedom of choice and equality of opportunity. And then it is allowed to function. It doesn't happen naturally without conscious human intervention.

Naturally, if society was a crude free-for-all, we'd have things that resemble Somalia, or the Mexican drug cartels, or North Korea (along with things like The United States). In these examples of political structures, we have the most powerful taking control of whatever they can take control of. Then they hold it there with whatever means they can for as long as they can.

Democracy is like this but all the people say "hey, let's try giving everyone the same amount of power so we can normalize this game called life and control this experiment for longer-term goals."

Basically I'm saying that power supersedes even democracy oh the moral pyramid. There is one level even beyond democracy and here you'll find it in the company of authoritarianism, communism, etc. Power is at the top level of this pyramid. It is based on survival of the fittest. Power is the only universal moral because it is a fundamental law of nature. Democracy is not a fundamental law of nature. It is a construct of a specific subgroup of humans. It was conceived and designed to achieve a specific goal. And because there is a goal, and all goals are different, it is a subjective end. Therefore democracy is arbitrary and subjective—not a universal moral.

As much as you'd like to believe in inalienable rights, if I have a gun to your head, you can bet I can alienate your "natural" rights. Yes, you'll always have the choice of death or obedience, but once you're dead, you're irrelevant. But if you have a bigger gun, then I can no longer "alienate" your rights! You can "alienate" mine! That's power. Democracy is abstracted into laws which are ultimately enforced with power (guns, police... head) Because of this, democracy is not fundamental. It is human-designed construct and therefore it is not a universal thing.

Another way to think of it is like this: we have a 10 x 10 grid and we have 100 people. Democracy assigns each person a square. Power lets people take whatever squares they can defend. The end result of these two philosophies will look different, but democracy was specifically designed to artificially treat each person as equal so we can achieve the end goal of giving people a chance to succeed. Supposedly this will help society be better off, but this goal is still an arbitrary goal (though most people would agree on this) and democracy is just the means. The natural outcome is to give spaces to those who can defend it. If you can't defend the space, you don't deserve to own it. Democracy is human manipulation of this system to try to achieve better results.

I will fully disclose that I am a firm supporter of democracy (because of the way it normalizes society), but I want to make it clear that it's because it's the best method so far, not because it's inherently right.

Re: What is Happening in Istanbul?

#446
post #348

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Don't forget the right to kill people and the right to pollute the environment. Singapore doesn't allow those either.

So, are you suggesting a) that in the USA you are _legally_ allowed to kill others and to pollute? or b) that no, the USA doesn't legally allow that, but in practice it does (any stats on how many guilty people got off the hook?) or what?

Just saying it's a gray area. You can't argue for all rights, and you can't argue for absolutely no rights. In a free society, you still have to give up some rights.

Re: What is Happening in Istanbul?

#447
post #158

"These people are my friends. They are my students, my relatives. They have no «hidden agenda» as the state likes to say. Their agenda is out there. It is very clear. The whole country is being sold to corporations by the government, for the construction of malls, luxury condominiums, freeways, dams and nuclear plants. The government is looking for (and creating when necessary) any excuse to attack Syria against its…

"The scariest dystopias are not hideous hellscapes where nobody would want to live, as those tend to self-destruct or at best persist in tiny enclaves and never catch on."

This seems to be the sort of opinion only a person who does not live in said hideous hellscape could support. While I (Singaporean) do not agree with everything the government does, I would definitely much rather live here than in North Korea.

Re: What is Happening in Istanbul?

#448
post #239

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Reading it 10 more times won't change anything. Yes English is my first language (so what?). I understand perfectly the words but the attempts to draw parallels with Singapore makes absolutely no sense.

Go to Singapore. Litter. http://3.bp.blogspot.com/-CRiqfOMVC74/T69l6BH1vVI/AAAAAAAAL8... What bubble are you living in because it desperately needs to be popped.

You don't get caned for littering in Singapore.

Re: What is Happening in Istanbul?

#449
post #101

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't think they saw him though. And the shield hopefully saved him.

I looked at the video again. If you look it in slow motion, you can see that there is another man crouching in the back. Although the man in the front might not be visible to the tank driver, the one behind should be and has no shield. Also, just before the impact the tank fires the water cannon in the exact direction of the two. Might be a coincidence or a proof they saw them. But even in the event they did not see…

By shield I meant that thing on a car that saved him from being run over and "just" tossed him to the side.

Re: What is Happening in Istanbul?

#450
post #447
post #158

"These people are my friends. They are my students, my relatives. They have no «hidden agenda» as the state likes to say. Their agenda is out there. It is very clear. The whole country is being sold to corporations by the government, for the construction of malls, luxury condominiums, freeways, dams and nuclear plants. The government is looking for (and creating when necessary) any excuse to attack Syria against its…

"The scariest dystopias are not hideous hellscapes where nobody would want to live, as those tend to self-destruct or at best persist in tiny enclaves and never catch on." This seems to be the sort of opinion only a person who does not live in said hideous hellscape could support. While I (Singaporean) do not agree with everything the government does, I would definitely much rather live here than in North Korea.

I think he's saying "scariest in the long run," because the worst sort are (of course) much worse in the short run, but are less likely to last very long.
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