Live data from Hacker News

What is Happening in Istanbul?

defnesumanblogs.com

381–390 of 519 posts

Re: What is Happening in Istanbul?

#381
post #158

"These people are my friends. They are my students, my relatives. They have no «hidden agenda» as the state likes to say. Their agenda is out there. It is very clear. The whole country is being sold to corporations by the government, for the construction of malls, luxury condominiums, freeways, dams and nuclear plants. The government is looking for (and creating when necessary) any excuse to attack Syria against its…

Yikes! 'Singaporification' of Turkey makes geopolitical tourist analyst hacks look like Nobel prizewinners.

Some stuff is not like other stuff -

http://pawelmorski.com/2013/06/02/turkey-some-stuff-isnt-ver...

This is messy and local and not understandable through pie-in-the-sky comparisons and metaphors and abstractions (or by reading clippings-job 'intelligence services', ZeroHedge-meets-Mossad-reject conspiracy theorists, or the propaganda plants of every Middle Eastern talking-point mill)

Just read TFA and ignore the out-of-body hallucinatory comments.

Hugh Pope is also pretty good

http://hughpope.com/2013/06/01/a-ringside-seat-as-istanbul-p...

Re: What is Happening in Istanbul?

#382
post #379

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I meant it as in the regime won't resign because of these riots.

Well, reading your comment, especially in the light of how distraught Erdogan seemed in his 1.5 interview with Fatih Altayli, it definitely seems off. Also, Erdogan's party is not a homogenous block, although he's holding everybody in check right now. Even now, some dissident voices among AKP intelligentsia started worrying about the loss of support. Assuming the government will go after a few days of riots is naive;…

The interview was staged, or at least well-rehearsed. You will notice that Altayli could not dare to ask any serious questions or question Erdogan's reasoning in any shape or form.

Basically, Altayli is a spineless coward and lost the respect of the Turkish people.

(He reminded me of the way Wolf Blitzer moderated some of the presidential debates here in the US. Blitzer also didn't have the balls to ask anything difficult.)

Re: What is Happening in Istanbul?

#383
post #347

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Don't believe him. It is basically full of lies, albeit written with a very good English. AKP basically used EU as a cover to weaken other significant forces like legal bodies, media, military. Now, they are in phase 2, using their power to crush all others who do not live like them. For example, until late yesterday, there were no major TV channels airing the news. We communicated via Twitter, and the only live broa…

Which part is false? What fact are you objecting in his post? I think what he has written is easily verifiable so there is no need to trust him or me. As far as I have checked they are accurate. As I understand, you have been protesting freely with the support from military, judiciary (it looks that recently Kemalist supreme court tried to close AKP while it had a majority in Turkish parliament and had just won anoth…

We are not minority! (It does not matter that we are the minority or not though, a true democracy has to respect the life of all minorities.) In the last election, his party gained 50% of the votes, not 80% or 90%. Unfortunately, our election system is flawed so that they can get the majority in the parliament to pass any vote they want. As an example of the flaw in the system, votes of parties who get votes below 10% do not get counted (which effected Kurdish minority).

Now, let me refute part by part:

> Turkey was ruled by ultra-nationalist ultra-secular militarist groups for decades.

> You have to know that the length of Turkish governments before AKP to get a feeling of its significance: a few months!

These are patently false. Yes, there were coups but after each coup, right wing ancestors of AKP were in power "majority" of time. If you look at elections, in Turkey, in almost elections, right wing got around 60-70% of votes. The only left wing politician who was in power was Inonu and Ecevit, the former being a figure from the Independence War, the latter a politician who was embraced by people left and right for his honest, non-corrupt personality.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Prime_Ministers_of_Turk...

1950-60 Adnan Menderes, The Democratic Party: Pro-American, Islam-leaning right wing party. 1965-71 Suleyman Demirel: Justice Party. Right wing party who declared itself as the successor of The Democratic Party. 1975-77: Suleyman Demirel: One more time. 1979-80: Suleyman Demirel: One more time! 1983-89: Turgut Ozal: ANAP. Right wing, pro-capitalist party. 1989-91: Mesut Ozal: Took place of Turgut Ozal, who became the President. 1991-93: Suleyman Demirel. One more time 1993-96: Tansu Ciller: Took place of Suleyman Demirel, who became the President. 1996: Mesut Yilmaz 1996-1997: Necmettin Erbakan. Pro-Islamist, anti-capitalist, right wing party. Current PM Erdogan was the mayor of Istanbul from his party. 2002-2003: Abdullah Gul. Current President, who was then head of AKP since Erdogan was in jail.

> Watch Erdogan's victory speech after winning the last election in which AKP further increased its share of votes. His attitude was completely humble and reconciliatory.

That speech never materialized, as can be exemplified by the use of tear gas against protestors today.

> The problem is that the support base of AKP is not the western oriented seculars, it is the conservative majority who didn't have a voice in politics for decades

Not true, as you can see, what Erdogan calls as his ancestors, Menderes, Ozal and Erbakan were in power. What happened is middle-right wing evaporated, and AKP got their votes since they were proposing a capitalist agenda as well. In other words, right wing was majority in Turkey all the time, but the votes were distributed among several parties. When the economic situation became so bad in 2002, the public protested these parties, and voted for the only prominent new right-wing party at the time. The economic success came due to two reasons: 1- The "technocrat", Kemal Dervis who was brought in the late times of the former gov't made sound economic policies, which the new gov't applied. 2-They sold most of the state owned assets and gained money. See for example Turkish Telekom, the only PSTN providers, who also operated majority of the internet in Turkey. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Turkish_Telekom

AKP then used its position as the leading party to strengthen its position in the next elections.

> Rather the secular minority demanding more than their fair share.

Fair share? As in, right to live according to their wishes, and not that of AKP?

> I mean they objected to the removal of the ban on head-scarves for students attending university and consider it Islamization of Turkey (a country where over 70% of women wears head-scarf).

Not true. This is lumping all secular people into one big pot. Yes, there were people who objected this, but the fundamental promise of secularity is to form rules so that each person can live his religion freely, that no religion is higher against the rule.

Re: What is Happening in Istanbul?

#384
post #235
post #225

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I honestly don't understand your criticism here. The entire point of the post was that Singapore is a great place to live as long as you do not try to exercise a political freedom. Singaporeans (or at least the ones who are left) happen to be willing to accept less freedoms in exchange for economic success, but it doesn't take an especially libertarian mindset to decide that you'd rather prize political freedom over…

> a great place to live as long as you do not try to exercise a political freedom I'm not arguing with that. What I'm trying to say is that I don't think it has been conclusively proved that being able to exercise that freedom leads to a better society, and it is that end we should be thinking about, not the means. > decide that you'd rather prize political freedom over wealth Long term, if political freedom doesn't…

The thing is, someone is exercising political freedom in even the most repressive governments: the person (or people) at the top who make all the decisions.

Now it's possible that they will make some good decisions, and create wealth and raise living standards for a while.

But eventually, they will either make some bad decisions, or die. And when that happens...then what? Often the answer (as we have seen recently) is violent chaos.

Political freedoms allow a society to reinvent itself without chaotic bloodshed. When leaders make bad decisions, everyone else can talk about it, figure out a better way to go, and vote that into effect.

The power of this approach is ably demonstrated by the U.S., which is the richest, and one of the most stable, nations on Earth, despite having among the strongest protections for free expression.

Re: What is Happening in Istanbul?

#385
post #314

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I partially disagree with your comment about corruption. This part:"Turkey on the other hand is rampant with corruption, especially the current government." Corruption on upper levels probably never disappears, but at least on the lower levels, where people really got hurt and dreaded most, things got better with current government. As someone who lived in Turkey for quite long time, I can say I was pleasantly surpri…

Interesting map, but I have to question it a bit. I mean, Switzerland is 6th which speaks highly to their local situation, but their banks enable all manner of international corruptions.

Excellent comment - the saga of stolen Jewish stuff took just a wee while to start to be repatriated...

Re: What is Happening in Istanbul?

#386
post #170

Earlier quoted context omitted.

When I see stories like this, I'm always impressed at the wide availability of gas masks. Are we even allowed to own those in the States?* *Yes, I know how sad of a question that is.

Ignorance, whether real or pretend, is often a great way of spreading FUD.

I'm not sure why you feel my post was disingenuous. There are many forms of self-protection that we need to ask our government permissions to obtain.

Re: What is Happening in Istanbul?

#387

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> The entire point of the post was that Singapore is a great place to live as long as you do not try to exercise a political freedom. This is not true. His exact words were "I find Singapore to be the scariest dystopia in the world today". > Singaporeans (or at least the ones who are left) happen to be willing to accept less freedoms in exchange for economic success This is bullshit. What a sweeping generalisation to…

What are these "less freedoms" exactly? You know, free elections, the right to arm yourself, the right to buy chewing gum . Singapore is pretty creepy under the surface and reeks of covert oppression, at least to my American eye. It seems to work for them, but I wouldn't want to live in a place like that, clean streets or not.

> free elections

That's ironic, you being an American and all.

> the right to arm yourself

This is rich.

Re: What is Happening in Istanbul?

#388
post #285

This was a posted by a friend on Facebook: Since I see that some friends have got excited about the recent events in Turkey I decided to write something about it and provide some context. I think it is good to know a bit of history of Turkey before AKP to understand what is going on there. It has been more than 10 years that AKP is in power so people might not know or may have forgotten the situation before AKP. Turk…

You are insulting the intelligence of the HN crowd. Your user account created 5 hours ago. Are we supposed to believe that this post was written by "a friend on Facebook?"

>>However, AKP (and Erdogan) is definitely the best thing that has happened to Turkey over many decades, and Turks know it.

Wrong. Although Erdogan and his goons in the Turkish media do their best to give this impression. Turkey was not a perfect country before. But it was actually secular. And that makes it objectively better than what it is today. Forget about the surface-level improvements Erdogan made. He may be wearing sheep's clothes, but deep down inside he's a wolf who wants Turkey to become another Iran.

Re: What is Happening in Istanbul?

#389
post #201
post #176

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Of course we're "allowed" to own them in the United States... Despite what people on reddit, and other fringe internet forums would have you believe, The United States has some of the strongest personal liberties in the world.

We Americans may be allowed to own gas masks, but we are not allowed to wear them. I was at WTO `Battle in Seattle', protesters were arrested for wearing them, individuals had their gas masks brutally removed then pepper sprayed in the face.

Thank God for not being a police state dystopia like Singapore.

Re: What is Happening in Istanbul?

#390
post #310
post #88

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Turkey actually is a successful example of a democratic state where Islam is the religion of the vast majority, albeit it is not a Muslim state, as the constitution is religion-agnostic; nowhere in it exists a phrase which even implies that the state has an official religion. Current government follows a conservative policy and has been elected with roughly 49% of votes. This eventually gave them power and resources…

> A party with less than 10% vote rate can not have it's members in the parliament, which eventually let them occupy more that 50% of the 550 quota of the number of parliamentarians. Actually it's not a bug, if they would allow smaller parties they would have 10,20,50 parties in there, some with only one person. It would be a mess - hard to make any decision.

I believe 10% leaves out a huge amount of votes, esp. in Turkey where exists 45 million voters and 60 parties. 5% or less would be a better choice.
Post reply on HN