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Angry young Indians: What a waste

economist.com

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Re: Angry young Indians: What a waste

#41

Post by seanmcdirmid »

chailatte wrote: post #37
auctiontheory wrote: post #33

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Education, infrastructure, and even basic literacy are at least an order of magnitude worse in India than in Taiwan.

taiwan also didn't also have the problem of 1.) large population 2.) squatters rights 3.) apathetic/spineless voters 4.) human fecal matters on the streets 5.) water shortage 6.) religious ferver 7.) entranched corruption 8.)....many more

Taiwan and SK also had strong dictatorships until relatively recently; we aren't really talking about democracy until the 80s. Now, dictatorships are bad, but as long as the dictators are somewhat responsible, they do convey some amount of stability and economic development on the country that might not be possible (at that time) with a more chaotic democratic system. I'm not pro dictator, and I'm sure there was a more efficient path to prosperity that involved democracy, but this is just how it worked out.

Today see China, or Singapore if you think maybe the Lee family has a bit too much power than is justified in a real democracy.

Re: Angry young Indians: What a waste

#42

Post by bokonist »

f1vespeed wrote: post #20

As a US-raised Indian I'm not familiar with the macro details. But I've been living in India for the past few years working for a startup, so let me identify some low-hanging fruit. 1) Incredibly, shockingly poor hygiene. Dirty black rags being used repeatedly to dry plates at restaurants. Idlys being cooked on plastic sheets inside hot streamers. Infernoes of uncollected trash burning on streets. Rats and cockroache…

I'm not a pessimist about India by any means, because it's amazing how much the people of this country have achieved through individual hard work in the face of so many poor institutions

Well, the Indian people are ultimately responsible for the institutions of India. So why don't the institutions get fixed? Potholes, uncollected trash, rats - these are not particularly hard problems. Plenty of societies have figured it out. Why have these problems persisted for so long in India?

Re: Angry young Indians: What a waste

#43

Post by [deleted] »

bokonist wrote: post #42
f1vespeed wrote: post #20

As a US-raised Indian I'm not familiar with the macro details. But I've been living in India for the past few years working for a startup, so let me identify some low-hanging fruit. 1) Incredibly, shockingly poor hygiene. Dirty black rags being used repeatedly to dry plates at restaurants. Idlys being cooked on plastic sheets inside hot streamers. Infernoes of uncollected trash burning on streets. Rats and cockroache…

I'm not a pessimist about India by any means, because it's amazing how much the people of this country have achieved through individual hard work in the face of so many poor institutions Well, the Indian people are ultimately responsible for the institutions of India. So why don't the institutions get fixed? Potholes, uncollected trash, rats - these are not particularly hard problems. Plenty of societies have figured…

[deleted]

Re: Angry young Indians: What a waste

#44

Post by lake99 »

zanny wrote: post #16
lake99 wrote: post #7

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I have the impression that the landmass of India is insufficient to sustain its population. Let's say the food supply is managed perfectly (it isn't) and no one is going hungry. How about the fact that 60% of the population does not have access to reliable electricity? How about the fact that most big cities have scheduled power-cuts (mostly in summer) for 2-6 hours each day? Energy needs are just the tip of this ice…

Do keep in mind the reason the explloding population is bad is not exclusively because of the raw number of people or the lack of food or power availability (both can be improved with tech) but more because the population explosion is in the poorest Indians in the most isolated areas who suddenly came into contact with basic medicine and health practice in the last 30 years. Population explosions at the bottom always…

India does not have a big problem with food production. It has a problem with the storage and dispersal of food. The problem is not with the tech, but with management (in turn, with corruption). Power: The only tech that can fix it is cost-effective solar power, which is a long way off. Otherwise India imports coal, petroleum and uranium. India's resources cannot sustain its power needs.

Population explosion will be at the bottom in India. Improving healthcare (by charities also) and worsening (or non-existent) education points only in one direction.

Re: Angry young Indians: What a waste

#45

Post by capex »

bokonist wrote: post #42
f1vespeed wrote: post #20

As a US-raised Indian I'm not familiar with the macro details. But I've been living in India for the past few years working for a startup, so let me identify some low-hanging fruit. 1) Incredibly, shockingly poor hygiene. Dirty black rags being used repeatedly to dry plates at restaurants. Idlys being cooked on plastic sheets inside hot streamers. Infernoes of uncollected trash burning on streets. Rats and cockroache…

I'm not a pessimist about India by any means, because it's amazing how much the people of this country have achieved through individual hard work in the face of so many poor institutions Well, the Indian people are ultimately responsible for the institutions of India. So why don't the institutions get fixed? Potholes, uncollected trash, rats - these are not particularly hard problems. Plenty of societies have figured…

Because these are not the problems, just the symptoms. The problem is a deep class divide between the haves and have-nots. Those who climb out of poverty never look back. Those who are already rich feed on people staying poor, uneducated and miserable. That's the vote bank easiest to manipulate.

I am not from India, but neighbouring Pakistan. We just had our national elections and the only hope, Imran Khan's PTI lost. Nearly everyone I know in Pakistan has voted for PTI, but through a combination of election rigging and a mass of poverty-stricken people being coerced into voting for the wrong guy resulted in the status quo being maintained.

Re: Angry young Indians: What a waste

#46

Post by cscurmudgeon »

chailatte wrote: post #31
f1vespeed wrote: post #20

As a US-raised Indian I'm not familiar with the macro details. But I've been living in India for the past few years working for a startup, so let me identify some low-hanging fruit. 1) Incredibly, shockingly poor hygiene. Dirty black rags being used repeatedly to dry plates at restaurants. Idlys being cooked on plastic sheets inside hot streamers. Infernoes of uncollected trash burning on streets. Rats and cockroache…

I am a huge pessimist about India. here's why. 1.) Everyone in the thread is ignoring a huge point raised by the author: this is the last biggest bubble we will ever witness in our lifetime (and possibly for many lifetimes) due to a.) unpeg of gold standard b.) shift from farm to factory work c.) shift from one income to two income household d.) machine/software advances and many other factors has produced the greate…

There are better countries for companies to invest in that have better infrastructure and speaks better english.

You might want to reword that. :)

More seriously, I am optimistic because 1) the older generation will die off and 2) almost 50% of the grad students in any top US university are from India. (This includes programs in AI and Robotics. Count me in that too.)

Re: Angry young Indians: What a waste

#47

Post by dsuth »

rikacomet wrote: post #25

I did a research a while back. For an entrepreneur, there are only two things he can make broadly, products and services. While services is a another thing, new products depend on a major workforce of prototyping industry. Product Development in short is: Idea --> CAD File -- Prototype It appears, that most of the prototyping firms, do not pick up from in the middle, i.e, If I had a Idea, no firm was ready to produce…

That's because there's a step missing in your model, which goes like this:

Idea --> Engineering/Design --> CAD File --> Prototype

And the reason it doesn't get done that well in places like India and China at the moment is that it's not easy or quick to create a sustainable engineering sector that can reliably take ideas to a working prototype stage.

China, and to a lesser extent India, will slowly develop this over the next 10-15 years I think, since Western companies are gifting them a huge amount of engineering knowledge in exchange for cheap engineering, or so-called High Value Engineering (HVE), but there are a few hurdles even so:

1. Education. 2. Cultural issues around problem solving.

Re: Angry young Indians: What a waste

#48

Post by bokonist »

capex wrote: post #45
bokonist wrote: post #42

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm not a pessimist about India by any means, because it's amazing how much the people of this country have achieved through individual hard work in the face of so many poor institutions Well, the Indian people are ultimately responsible for the institutions of India. So why don't the institutions get fixed? Potholes, uncollected trash, rats - these are not particularly hard problems. Plenty of societies have figured…

Because these are not the problems, just the symptoms. The problem is a deep class divide between the haves and have-nots. Those who climb out of poverty never look back. Those who are already rich feed on people staying poor, uneducated and miserable. That's the vote bank easiest to manipulate. I am not from India, but neighbouring Pakistan. We just had our national elections and the only hope, Imran Khan's PTI lost…

The problem is a deep class divide between the haves and have-nots.

Britain of 1850 had a deep class divide, but they managed to keep the trash off streets. The rich do not have an interest in sewage running into the rivers or slums that are breeding supergerms. The upper class in England and America drove all the public health measures (such as sewers, clean drinking water, vaccination campaigns, etc.) in the 1800's that made cities livable. What is different about India? Why is this not happening?

Re: Angry young Indians: What a waste

#49

Post by wisty »

seanmcdirmid wrote: post #41
chailatte wrote: post #37

Earlier quoted context omitted.

taiwan also didn't also have the problem of 1.) large population 2.) squatters rights 3.) apathetic/spineless voters 4.) human fecal matters on the streets 5.) water shortage 6.) religious ferver 7.) entranched corruption 8.)....many more

Taiwan and SK also had strong dictatorships until relatively recently; we aren't really talking about democracy until the 80s. Now, dictatorships are bad , but as long as the dictators are somewhat responsible, they do convey some amount of stability and economic development on the country that might not be possible (at that time) with a more chaotic democratic system. I'm not pro dictator, and I'm sure there was a m…

Maybe it's not really dictatorship vs democracy.

India has an English democracy. Everything in India was originally designed to support a wealthy English middle-class (if it was important directly from the UK), or to extract wealth from poor Indians so it could be exported to the UK.

I'm saying, India's institutions are overbuilt. They were originally designed to work in a far richer, and far more orderly country. There are certainly some things which are "one size fits all", but for anything which is only appropriate with a large, law abiding middle class it fails horribly in India.

Re: Angry young Indians: What a waste

#50

Post by nikster »

intended wrote: post #10
lifeguard wrote: post #6

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Nice tear down of a planted story. Regular people were not the intended audience of this hit piece.

? I work at a firm that manufacture goods and has a few factories. Everything mentioned in the article is true, and grossly downplays the gritty reality to make for simple reading.

I have never been to India but I live in Thailand. India sounds like a hot steaming mess, but then many of these countries are. Thailand is extremely corrupt and ruled by a few oligarch families; democracy is bought outright. But what they have done is recognized the opportunity for foreign investment; the laws to start a business in Thailand are basically impossible for a foreigner - except! - they made new laws under a Board of Investment that can get around all that and make it super easy. If you have cash, you can build a factory here under very favorable terms. Perhaps the difference is that in Thailand the entrenched powers have a vital interest in attracting foreign investment where in India they dont? Aside from laws the cultural norms may also be a problem. Laws are really not enforced here but the culture is such that hygiene is excellent pretty much everywhere. Not an issue.
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