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Angry young Indians: What a waste

economist.com

11–20 of 118 posts

Re: Angry young Indians: What a waste

#11
post #5

Words, words, and more empty words! > But the likes of Bharat Forge and Mahindra & Mahindra prefer to employ sophisticated machinery rather than abundant labour. Surely, it employs labour. Why does the author claim that machines are preferred over labour? What does he compare it with? Where are the numbers? > At the other end of the spectrum are innumerable tinpot workshops, employing handfuls of people and outdated…

This is a leader from The Economist . These are often short introduction and position statements on issues that are discussed in more depth elsewhere in the issue. I wonder if this one came from this winter's issue that included a special report on India.

Re: Angry young Indians: What a waste

#12
post #5

Words, words, and more empty words! > But the likes of Bharat Forge and Mahindra & Mahindra prefer to employ sophisticated machinery rather than abundant labour. Surely, it employs labour. Why does the author claim that machines are preferred over labour? What does he compare it with? Where are the numbers? > At the other end of the spectrum are innumerable tinpot workshops, employing handfuls of people and outdated…

[deleted]

Re: Angry young Indians: What a waste

#13
post #8
post #5

Words, words, and more empty words! > But the likes of Bharat Forge and Mahindra & Mahindra prefer to employ sophisticated machinery rather than abundant labour. Surely, it employs labour. Why does the author claim that machines are preferred over labour? What does he compare it with? Where are the numbers? > At the other end of the spectrum are innumerable tinpot workshops, employing handfuls of people and outdated…

Well do you have any figures to back your clam that this is an idiotic piece? Comparison of India and China is a common topic on the Economist (and elsewhere). These are countries with comparable population, demographics, history of exploitation by the West, and they are both in Asia. Sure, theere are large difference in the details but I think the question that, given its tremendous presence in the tech field, very…

> Well do you have any figures to back your clam that this is an idiotic piece?

The article was arguing for "How India is throwing away the world’s biggest economic opportunity". I don't need data to show the arguments were weak. I just need to analyse the arguments presented.

> These are countries with comparable population,

agreed

> demographics

huh?

> history of exploitation by the West

I don't see that coming up in the article

> and they are both in Asia.

How is that relevant?

> Comparison of India and China is a common topic on the Economist (and elsewhere).

My problem is not with the comparison of China and India. My problem is with this comparison of China and India.

Re: Angry young Indians: What a waste

#14
post #5

Words, words, and more empty words! > But the likes of Bharat Forge and Mahindra & Mahindra prefer to employ sophisticated machinery rather than abundant labour. Surely, it employs labour. Why does the author claim that machines are preferred over labour? What does he compare it with? Where are the numbers? > At the other end of the spectrum are innumerable tinpot workshops, employing handfuls of people and outdated…

The burden of proof is on you; further - I can corroborate everything about manufacturing even after woking in only a medium sized manufacturing firm.

People can't be fired, and as a result few people are technically employees of a firm - they are usually employed with a labor outsourcing firm that moves people out after two years or n-1 years, where n = number of years before automatic entitlement to provident fund/pension plans.

When I last heard it was something like n=3 years.

There is mass absenteeism if there's a festival or someone needs help in the fields, or just if people think that they can't be fired.

Did you know that your cash for payments of salaries of workers has to be within x kilometres of your factory?

It's one of many rules people don't follow, because there is a forest of rules.

Then there's strikes, and corruption.

To provide an idea of what the attitude difference is between people on HN and the people who have so far never really had to think of professional modern commercial systems :

There's a long way to go before the unspoken assumptions on the ground at a labor level closely match anything such as a forum like HN.

A banker went to collect a loan instalment from a farmer. The farmers reaction was "holy hell! Haven't they come up with a debt forgiveness scheme for it already?"

People still think that money can come from thin air, provided you have the connections to protect you or access to votes.

Why work when you can just make sure you won't get fired and are guaranteed an increment because of the union?

And the on the other side you have the firms- hemmed by 100s of laws to,protect labor, they yet find a way to do what they can/want.

The government has created internship program's which can lead to a certification, and I've heard of firms warping the system to convert it into cheap labor.

The article doesn't have numbers because the numbers are a search away and these are a group of known, fundamental facts.

The economist isn't supposed to make every article a phd dissertation or a full fledged wiki on the off chance that someone unfamiliar with the background material is unable to perform a google search themselves.

Re: Angry young Indians: What a waste

#15
post #5

Words, words, and more empty words! > But the likes of Bharat Forge and Mahindra & Mahindra prefer to employ sophisticated machinery rather than abundant labour. Surely, it employs labour. Why does the author claim that machines are preferred over labour? What does he compare it with? Where are the numbers? > At the other end of the spectrum are innumerable tinpot workshops, employing handfuls of people and outdated…

This is a leader from The Economist . These are often short introduction and position statements on issues that are discussed in more depth elsewhere in the issue. I wonder if this one came from this winter's issue that included a special report on India.

You're correct that it's a leader, but it's not from this winter. Look at the date on the article: May 11th, 2013. It's from the latest issue.

Here is the full briefing: http://www.economist.com/news/briefing/21577373-india-will-s...

Re: Angry young Indians: What a waste

#16
post #7
post #4

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Why does their population growth have to be a negative? They are currently as big as China, which will have the biggest economy in the world within a decade. They should invest in the population and rise to the top.

I have the impression that the landmass of India is insufficient to sustain its population. Let's say the food supply is managed perfectly (it isn't) and no one is going hungry. How about the fact that 60% of the population does not have access to reliable electricity? How about the fact that most big cities have scheduled power-cuts (mostly in summer) for 2-6 hours each day? Energy needs are just the tip of this ice…

Do keep in mind the reason the explloding population is bad is not exclusively because of the raw number of people or the lack of food or power availability (both can be improved with tech) but more because the population explosion is in the poorest Indians in the most isolated areas who suddenly came into contact with basic medicine and health practice in the last 30 years.

Population explosions at the bottom always hurt economies, and you just never see them happen at the top for a plethora of reasons.

Re: Angry young Indians: What a waste

#17
post #9
post #5

Words, words, and more empty words! > But the likes of Bharat Forge and Mahindra & Mahindra prefer to employ sophisticated machinery rather than abundant labour. Surely, it employs labour. Why does the author claim that machines are preferred over labour? What does he compare it with? Where are the numbers? > At the other end of the spectrum are innumerable tinpot workshops, employing handfuls of people and outdated…

As usual when someone posts an Economist leader article, someone is indignant that it is a little thin. The actual briefing article, at a couple of thousand words longer, is still journalism rather than a scholarly paper, i.e. it doesn't cite every fact, but it does state the numbers behind its assertions.

I don't know what actual article you are referring to, other than the one at the link posted.

> but it does state the numbers behind its assertions.

I mentioned the lack of some specific numbers for some specific assertions. Can you direct me to where they have covered that?

> ... is still journalism ...

If I were interested in labels, I'd call it yellow journalism.

Re: Angry young Indians: What a waste

#18
post #7
post #4

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Why does their population growth have to be a negative? They are currently as big as China, which will have the biggest economy in the world within a decade. They should invest in the population and rise to the top.

I have the impression that the landmass of India is insufficient to sustain its population. Let's say the food supply is managed perfectly (it isn't) and no one is going hungry. How about the fact that 60% of the population does not have access to reliable electricity? How about the fact that most big cities have scheduled power-cuts (mostly in summer) for 2-6 hours each day? Energy needs are just the tip of this ice…

Do note that things were worse before.

There were famines, massive food shortfalls and terrible job opportunities.

But if you look at the power situation, there's still something like 89%+ of power requirements being met, with capacity being added constantly.

It's the southern grid that has the highest levels of supply demand mismatch with Andhra Pradesh having a 16% shortfall.

But that's an opportunity for firms to sell generators, which at least give people a chance to move ahead while the govt gets over being corrupt.

Re: Angry young Indians: What a waste

#19
post #5

Words, words, and more empty words! > But the likes of Bharat Forge and Mahindra & Mahindra prefer to employ sophisticated machinery rather than abundant labour. Surely, it employs labour. Why does the author claim that machines are preferred over labour? What does he compare it with? Where are the numbers? > At the other end of the spectrum are innumerable tinpot workshops, employing handfuls of people and outdated…

The burden of proof is on you; further - I can corroborate everything about manufacturing even after woking in only a medium sized manufacturing firm. People can't be fired, and as a result few people are technically employees of a firm - they are usually employed with a labor outsourcing firm that moves people out after two years or n-1 years, where n = number of years before automatic entitlement to provident fund/…

> The burden of proof is on you;

For what claims of mine?

> People can't be fired

Ha! I have seen people getting fired all the time! Did you mean blue-collar workers can't be fired?

> I can corroborate everything ...

With anecdotal evidence?

> automatic entitlement to provident fund/pension plans

We are entitled to that from the very first day of employment, if the company has more than a certain number of employees. When we quit and go to another company, we are given the option of transferring it to the next employer.

> There is mass absenteeism if there's a festival or someone needs help in the fields

Anecdotal. I have not seen this.

> ... off chance that someone unfamiliar with the background material is unable to perform a google search themselves.

I mentioned specific weaknesses. Show me the relevant Google queries that you would use to get the data. It will be a learning experience for one of us.

Re: Angry young Indians: What a waste

#20
As a US-raised Indian I'm not familiar with the macro details. But I've been living in India for the past few years working for a startup, so let me identify some low-hanging fruit.

1) Incredibly, shockingly poor hygiene. Dirty black rags being used repeatedly to dry plates at restaurants. Idlys being cooked on plastic sheets inside hot streamers. Infernoes of uncollected trash burning on streets. Rats and cockroaches everywhere including your toothbrush at night.

2) Utterly horrifying road conditions. Potholes large enough to cause motorcycle crashes every 100 feet. A culture of not giving the other motorist more than 6 inches on any side. Driving on the wrong side of the road, including on highways. It's incredibly stressful to think about your odds when you leave the house.

3) A political system that no-one is optimistic about. Stories are rampant of politicians buying votes by giving free household appliances away to the poor, and then doing nothing in office to help them.

4) An education system that isn't remotely good enough. Miserable professors, antiquated curriculums that churn out the IT coolies we're so famous for.

5) Congestion so bad you hardly ever leave a 5-mile radius. People tend to hang out based on which neighborhood they live in, because a trip to a friend's place more than 5 miles away can turn into an hour-long slog on terrifying roads.

6) A culture of being cheap. If you're only willing to tip your waiter 10 rupees, it may help out your savings rate, but it certainly won't help the waiter buy his kid a computer someday. Same goes for our beloved household servants, who get paid $150 per month at best, $40 at worst to clean our floors.

But to voice a conflict that everyone who lives here talks about, I'm not a pessimist about India by any means, because it's amazing how much the people of this country have achieved through individual hard work in the face of so many poor institutions.

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