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Linus on Oregon HB 2748 and US education in general

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Re: Linus on Oregon HB 2748 and US education in general

#101

I don't know why Linus says that Americans blindly accept the crappiness. Perhaps they accept it because its systemic nature makes a hard thing to fix, but the acceptance isn't blind. Most smart people I know in this country seem to have had some clash with the school system in some form or another. Linus talks mostly about funding, but there's also the huge problem that schools don't seem to be teaching math and sci…

I didn't feel his comment was as general as 'blindly accept the crappiness'. What I read (which mirrors my own sentiment) is that it is seen as the normal and proper thing to supplement some local public services with fund raisers because they are underfunded. Firefighters breakfasts and school bake sales. Seriously we don't pay enough taxes to cover these basic services?

If people pay a lot of taxes and still don't have enough money in the budget to finance what's important for them, maybe they should take a look into the local budget and figure out where the money went. I'm sure people of Linus' grade of brainpower could do that. There's also a chance they'd discover that some of the city workers have pretty cushy benefit packages and the cost of it is more than they though it would be. And that they may be underfunded because some of the city workers fly to global warming conferences in luxury hotels in Hawaii on their dime, that is known to happen too. I wonder if that happens in Finland.

There's a long known bureaucratic principle then when the budget is short, first thing you cut is something that the public really feels the need - schools, firefighters, police, if you can find a way to involve sick or orphans - that's the gold. Because if you cut something really wasteful, you a) admit you wasted money and b) never get this money back ever. But if you cut something that is needed or perceived as needed, you show how bad it is hurting and if the situation ever improves, you get everything back at the first chance.

Of course, the alternative of looking at the local budget is to cry for the federal government to take the money from "the rich" and give to the schools - because think of the children!

Re: Linus on Oregon HB 2748 and US education in general

#102

Linus is correct to disagree with the Oregon bill, and it's too bad that he didn't point to an existing example in another state with some cultural similarities to Oregon. Finding out what learning environment, inside or outside school, is optimal for each learner is definitely a worthy goal, especially if means are then provided to obtain that environment. Education policy is the issue that drew me to participate on…

Another Minnesotan, who also moved to Chicago and moved back when considering where I wanted to raise a child...

I think part of what Linus gets wrong is that he confuses the correlation of high-property-tax well-funded districts with the performance of the schools in those districts. The high property taxes (or property values or however the market works it out) doesn't make the schools good, it filters out people who are indifferent to the school quality, and filters in people who place a high value on education. Once you cluster a lot of people with those values, the schools will be good; in part because of the peers a student will encounter, and in part because of all of the small but concrete things parents do to make the schools better.

Open enrollment without tuitions doesn't challenge that clustering. To participate in open enrollment in Minnesota, you have to really value education: you have to figure out what the school is you want to attend, you have to figure out the bureaucracy to get in to that school, and you have to provide your own transportation to the school. All those hurdles are just as good as high property taxes or high property values.

The irony is that as a result open enrollment is not as progressive as it might seem. It's something the privileged can use to fix their children's education experience without moving, or allow people to trade effort for income. But it doesn't bring the underprivileged up, because they really don't take advantage of open enrollment. Though perhaps I'm using circular thinking, as I generally consider children with engaged, informed, and capable parents as "privileged" regardless of income; and maybe I even think that way because Minnesota supports that particular lifestyle choice via things like open enrollment. It's a particular life arrangement that I didn't see much of in Chicago, and maybe that's no accident.

Re: Linus on Oregon HB 2748 and US education in general

#103
post #102

Linus is correct to disagree with the Oregon bill, and it's too bad that he didn't point to an existing example in another state with some cultural similarities to Oregon. Finding out what learning environment, inside or outside school, is optimal for each learner is definitely a worthy goal, especially if means are then provided to obtain that environment. Education policy is the issue that drew me to participate on…

Another Minnesotan, who also moved to Chicago and moved back when considering where I wanted to raise a child... I think part of what Linus gets wrong is that he confuses the correlation of high-property-tax well-funded districts with the performance of the schools in those districts. The high property taxes (or property values or however the market works it out) doesn't make the schools good, it filters out people w…

In the part of Minnesota I grew up in, open enrollment was mainly used to get a kid onto a different school's hockey team, if he didn't make the starting team of his local school.

Re: Linus on Oregon HB 2748 and US education in general

#104

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Were you homeschooled? Because I was, and all though I don't want to go into extensive detail on why I despise it, I will just say that parents HS because they think they know what's best for their children, but they often don't. I lived in an area with a horrible school district, so I understand why parents in school districts like that think they can do better, but in reality HS parents should be putting their ener…

K12/CAVA is "public school". It's the normal, California public school system -- it's just a charter school. But no, I wasn't home-schooled. I doubt it would have been a good choice pre-Internet, to be honest. Today, I firmly believe that CAVA is the best choice for kids in California if the goal of school is to actually educate them, especially pre-HS, vs. just be state-provided day care. The K12 curriculum and mate…

I was responding to the "Really, the negative comments here on homeschooling are staggeringly out of date." part of your post. I find that a lot of the criticism of homeschooling still rings true.

Re: Linus on Oregon HB 2748 and US education in general

#105
post #102

Linus is correct to disagree with the Oregon bill, and it's too bad that he didn't point to an existing example in another state with some cultural similarities to Oregon. Finding out what learning environment, inside or outside school, is optimal for each learner is definitely a worthy goal, especially if means are then provided to obtain that environment. Education policy is the issue that drew me to participate on…

Another Minnesotan, who also moved to Chicago and moved back when considering where I wanted to raise a child... I think part of what Linus gets wrong is that he confuses the correlation of high-property-tax well-funded districts with the performance of the schools in those districts. The high property taxes (or property values or however the market works it out) doesn't make the schools good, it filters out people w…

> The high property taxes (or property values or however the market works it out) doesn't make the schools good, it filters out people who are indifferent to the school quality, and filters in people who place a high value on education.

See Scarsdale, NY, a town in westchester which features insanely high home prices to fund the public school district (virtually all houses cost millions in today's market - high even for Westchester). The rare apartment buildings found well within range of the school are deliberately zoned out of the school district because they aren't contributing tens of thousands per year in school taxes, and students living outside of the district are free to attend if they pay ~40k/year in tuition.

Re: Linus on Oregon HB 2748 and US education in general

#106
post #54

Linus is correct to disagree with the Oregon bill, and it's too bad that he didn't point to an existing example in another state with some cultural similarities to Oregon. Finding out what learning environment, inside or outside school, is optimal for each learner is definitely a worthy goal, especially if means are then provided to obtain that environment. Education policy is the issue that drew me to participate on…

I graduated from one of those Minnesotan miracle school districts in 2007. I think I got a reasonable education -- it wasn't great compared to what people in private schools got, but it set me up to succeed in college. I now live in Chicago, which is the third largest school district in the United States. It's completely broken. * The schools are massively segregated -- both by income and by race. The wealthy leaders…

I'm not sure what you expect the school system to do for the total breakdown of social structure in vast swaths of Chicago. Middle class people would be insane to keep their kids in a school system where gangs have marked off territory in most of the schools and the majority of kids are from poor, single-parent homes. Even the middle class blacks who stuck it out on the south side for so long have given up--Chicago lost 200,000 of them in the last decade. The south side has become a literal ghetto--increasingly filled only with people who can't afford to get out. The schools can't fix a community on the edge of viability, raising children with no fathers, no structure of authority, and no prospects.

Re: Linus on Oregon HB 2748 and US education in general

#107

SHOCKING NEWS: Ethnically and linguistically homogeneous people from tiny, frozen nation easier to educate than diverse citizens of world's most-immigrated-to nation. Stay tuned for more surprising revelations, as soon as we hear them!

Shocking news: downsides of the US being blamed on demographics and size. This satisfies the population to accept the crappiness.

I've had this conversation too many times, but I'll say it again: Americans (and all people who have not lived abroad) tend to overestimate the differences within their own population and underestimate the differences in outside populations. You overestimate the diversivness of America. This is about the point someone says something stupid like Alabama and California are as different as two different countries.

Re: Linus on Oregon HB 2748 and US education in general

#108
not on topic, but how comes any time there's a comparison of education or healthcare or overall "social health" of the northern European countries (Linus's Finland, Norway, Sweden) with any other country in the world, the northeners are always better? How did they manage to get so many "social" problems so right? Does anyone know of a good case-study about how these countries reached their current level?

Re: Linus on Oregon HB 2748 and US education in general

#109
"Where one of my buddies transferred to my school not because it was more convenient or a better school, but because it was the only Swedish-speaking one that taught Latin, for chissake. And it was all free, and we didn't need to have cookie bake sales."

UK: we have the same affluent area/good school, poor area/poor school issues in the UK. I so wish we could get to the situation than Finland finds itself in, but I doubt the government wants to invest in the teaching profession to the extent required.

PS: Buildings don't matter above a certain threshold level. Shiny classroom equipment doesn't matter, just BYOD with a few loaner laptops and WiFi would be good.

Re: Linus on Oregon HB 2748 and US education in general

#110
post #47

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> However, what he mostly doesn't seem to realize is that Germany (or Finland, for this matter) does not really have the same type of highly competitive admission process for its universities as the United States [1]. Well that is because the Abitur (german high-school diploma) is regarded equally no matter which school you attended. From what I gathered the US high school diploma is worth pretty much nothing, withou…

Don't universties and Fachhochschule discriminate between the Abiturs of different Laender? Bavaria has the most difficult and highly regarded one, right?

No, universities don't do this (though they can consider other factors, including their own admission exams, but this is rare). This is actually a problem, because the matriculation exams are not the same in all German states, so students in some states have an unfair advantage in those cases where grades matter. Supposedly, in 2014/2015 the difficulty level of the matriculation exam will be standardized.

The problem exists because traditionally, grades had not been much of a factor in admission (outside of a few restricted courses of study such as medicine). German universities (prior to Bologna) were used to running an open admission process and instead enforced selectiveness by failing those students who couldn't handle it early on.

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