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Linus on Oregon HB 2748 and US education in general

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Re: Linus on Oregon HB 2748 and US education in general

#61
One thing Linus didn't mention about Finland and education which some of you may find interesting and of note; is that the right to education is enshrined in the Finnish constitution. http://www.oph.fi/english/education Coming from a family of educators I can't help but think this plays an important role in cementing Finland's position at the top of the OECD education rankings.

Furthermore, being a Scotsman and understanding how the Scots have long since had a history of free universal education, I think it's fair to say that this played an important part in the industrial revolution. It's also worth mentioning that Scotland is about to have it's independence referendum next year and high on the list for those who would see Scotland have self-determination is a written constitution. The UK is an anomaly in the developed western world for not having a written constitution and many of us would like to see free universal education enshrined into our new constitution, should we vote for independence.

Re: Linus on Oregon HB 2748 and US education in general

#62
post #55

It is objectively the case that our schools aren't bad in general. Not as good as Finland, but adjusted for demographics about average compared to the rest of Europe: http://super-economy.blogspot.com/2010/12/amazing-truth-abou... . You can't really compare the school systems of a homogenous country with low income inequality to one where 30% of the population is from either a historically oppressed racial minority g…

Teachers in Chicago are not paid over $70k/year

http://preaprez.wordpress.com/2012/09/12/the-in-box-the-7400...

Re: Linus on Oregon HB 2748 and US education in general

#63
post #50

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> The goal is to keep the wealth concentrated in the already wealthy. I don't understand this kind of thinking. Perhaps it isn't what you meant. My apologies if that isn't the case. I have heard and read this kind of sentiment before. Is the idea that the rich somehow conspire to do as you suggest? If so, how does that work? Did Steve Jobs receive a letter once his net worth passed a certain threshold inviting him to…

" What would happen if teachers were not unionized and had to compete for their jobs? What would happen if teachers lived in a true meritocracy without a sure protections?" Incidentally, practically every teacher in Finland belongs to an union, and it's unheard of to fire teachers on the basis of bad job performance. A true rationalist looks at the empirical evidence regardless of ideological opinions. You may not "l…

He didn't specifically mention measuring test scores, you did. But is your argument that effectiveness of teachers, effective educational outcomes are unmeasurable? Then how do we know that schools aren't doing perfectly fine right now? Why is there even a discussion about improving schools?

Would it be that objective comparisons between US and foreign students is trending downward (while costs go up)? Would it be that more and more a high school diploma (then college degree) means nothing as far as employability?

Is it that the demands of modern economy is not matched up with a supply of highly skilled workers? I think these are all evidence that public education needs modified... not necessarily that someone needs "blamed" for it, just that everyone needs to acknowledge it and be supportive of change.

Now I'd argue that measuring student test scores should be one part of many that go into evaluating teachers. But above all there has to be something that we use to evaluate them, otherwise how do we know it's working... or not... or when or how to try new ideas? It's not just the teachers but the whole system that should be constantly evaluated. Not necessarily to fire someone, but to give feedback and constantly improve.

For sure it could be argued that it's not teachers themselves that are failing students, but the system is structured to be resistant to change and innovation. Metrics that should be used to guide curriculum are graduate employability, job placement, are skills being taught to satisfy the needs of the job market, what's working and what isn't etc.

Introducing some sort of competition will allow schools to figure out the evaluation process themselves. Look at places like Dev Bootcamp that claim 80% of graduates are hired with X salary after graduation. That's succinct way to measure the effectiveness of their teachers. Not that I'm saying this example exactly compares to public school or that a CS solution is applicable to the overall problem but... on a side note why isn't programming and such more prevalent in high school? There's no reason a private company can impart those skills in 9 weeks and public schools couldn't do it in a year. Maybe this type of thing has been incorporated into public schools if so disregard...it's been a while since I've been there. Generally, I think high school was an extreme waste of time in regards to what was actually learned. And then college is four more years with knowledge that itself could have been taught in high school. I tell people all the time, nothing I learned in CS major in College couldn't have been learned in high school. It just wasn't offered.

Likewise for subjects like economics, finance, personal finance, etc. Handling ones finances is something that more Americans need to learn and these lessons are not being taught early enough.

Re: Linus on Oregon HB 2748 and US education in general

#64
post #40

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Surely with homeschooling kids are going to get even more inconsistent results due to radically varying teaching abilities and knowledge of parents? Some homeschooling parents might say that (1) the numbers play in their favor (no teacher would argue that it's far easier to teach 2 kids than 20), (2) that teaching a kid how to teach himself is far more important than having a teacher with a vast array of knowledge,…

I wouldn't put much faith in young children being able to direct their own learning effectively. I'm significantly older and I'm still not very good at it.

I'll clarify: I was homeschooled. My parents always had a set schedule and curriculum. Within that defined structure, I mostly taught myself.

A parent is perfectly capable of evaluating and deciding on a wide variety of curriculum even if they may not be knowledgeable enough to write a Chemistry book.

Re: Linus on Oregon HB 2748 and US education in general

#66
post #62
post #55

It is objectively the case that our schools aren't bad in general. Not as good as Finland, but adjusted for demographics about average compared to the rest of Europe: http://super-economy.blogspot.com/2010/12/amazing-truth-abou... . You can't really compare the school systems of a homogenous country with low income inequality to one where 30% of the population is from either a historically oppressed racial minority g…

Teachers in Chicago are not paid over $70k/year http://preaprez.wordpress.com/2012/09/12/the-in-box-the-7400...

The link you cited is highly misleading. The Chicago metro area is a census tract of 10 million people. The City of Chicago is 2.7 million people. The Chicago school system and the Chicago teachers union disagree about how to compute the number, but CTU cites $71k and CPS cites $76k: http://chicago.cbslocal.com/2012/06/12/how-much-do-chicago-p...

Also misleading from that link: Chicago's cost of living is right around the US average: http://www.bestplaces.net/cost_of_living/city/illinois/chica...

Re: Linus on Oregon HB 2748 and US education in general

#67
post #20

Linus is now seeing firsthand that opportunity is not equal in the United States. You typically need to have attended a good university to get a good job and to get into a good university you need to have graduated from a good secondary school - which you need to have paid for either through tuition or taxes. The goal is to keep the wealth concentrated in the already wealthy. That's how it works here in the United St…

I'll assume for the moment that Oregon's intentions are noble, and they're attempting to right this wrong. How ironic that it will achieve the exact opposite result.

See I have the opposite impression when I read stories like this. I don't assume their intentions are noble. I assume their intentions are self-serving. I think in almost all cases we see that elected representatives are incompetent when it comes to public education policy. It's not surprising. The vast majority have never worked in education. They don't know anything whatsoever about it, but they are making decisions on curriculum, funding, teacher and school evaluation criteria. I'm not surprised that they achieve the opposite of what they claim to be working towards, because that's what always happens. It should not be a surprise to anyone anymore, but for some reason we seem to always think that if we just try it one more time, with more money, we'll get different results.

Re: Linus on Oregon HB 2748 and US education in general

#68
post #66
post #62

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Teachers in Chicago are not paid over $70k/year http://preaprez.wordpress.com/2012/09/12/the-in-box-the-7400...

The link you cited is highly misleading. The Chicago metro area is a census tract of 10 million people. The City of Chicago is 2.7 million people. The Chicago school system and the Chicago teachers union disagree about how to compute the number, but CTU cites $71k and CPS cites $76k: http://chicago.cbslocal.com/2012/06/12/how-much-do-chicago-p... Also misleading from that link: Chicago's cost of living is right aroun…

You are also required to live IN the city if you are a teacher in CPS. So you can't take that salary and escape to the suburbs after work.

Re: Linus on Oregon HB 2748 and US education in general

#69
I went to public school with Sheryl Sandberg at North Miami Beach Sr. High School. She was a senior while I was a junior. Her little brother was my lab partner in AP Chemistry.

It really was a fantastic school. Some parents would put their kids in private school but we'd always see them back a semester later when it turned out that the private school wasn't much better than the public one.

I took a look at that school recently and I can tell you that I wouldn't send my kids (if I had any) there:

http://www.usnews.com/education/best-high-schools/florida/di...

Re: Linus on Oregon HB 2748 and US education in general

#70
post #63
post #50

Earlier quoted context omitted.

" What would happen if teachers were not unionized and had to compete for their jobs? What would happen if teachers lived in a true meritocracy without a sure protections?" Incidentally, practically every teacher in Finland belongs to an union, and it's unheard of to fire teachers on the basis of bad job performance. A true rationalist looks at the empirical evidence regardless of ideological opinions. You may not "l…

He didn't specifically mention measuring test scores, you did. But is your argument that effectiveness of teachers, effective educational outcomes are unmeasurable? Then how do we know that schools aren't doing perfectly fine right now? Why is there even a discussion about improving schools? Would it be that objective comparisons between US and foreign students is trending downward (while costs go up)? Would it be th…

Measuring education well is a hard problem. I don't know a good solution for that, but usually schools simply use test scores, which is a pretty bad solution.

"But above all there has to be something that we use to evaluate them, otherwise how do we know it's working... or not... or when or how to try new ideas?"

You can do qualitative analysis instead of quantative. It also works when you use a test that the schools don't / cant directly optimize for, which is probably true for the PISA test.

"There's no reason a private company can impart those skills in 9 weeks and public schools couldn't do it in a year."

While I agree that schools shoud teach programming more, the Dev Bootcamp's 80% metric is not really relevant. It filters only the most exceptional applicants to the program, not the average school kid. Many of those applicants probably already know the basics of programming.

"Generally, I think high school was an extreme waste of time in regards to what was actually learned."

Most people say the same thing here in Finland.

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