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Linus on Oregon HB 2748 and US education in general

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Re: Linus on Oregon HB 2748 and US education in general

#41

Post by jiggy2011 »

nthj wrote: post #40
jiggy2011 wrote: post #5

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Surely with homeschooling kids are going to get even more inconsistent results due to radically varying teaching abilities and knowledge of parents? Not to mention severely biased curricular, I'm sure HN kids would all know haskell by the time they were 9 but what about poetry , sports and history?

> Surely with homeschooling kids are going to get even more inconsistent results due to radically varying teaching abilities and knowledge of parents? Some homeschooling parents might say that (1) the numbers play in their favor (no teacher would argue that it's far easier to teach 2 kids than 20), (2) that teaching a kid how to teach himself is far more important than having a teacher with a vast array of knowledge,…

I wouldn't put much faith in young children being able to direct their own learning effectively. I'm significantly older and I'm still not very good at it.

Re: Linus on Oregon HB 2748 and US education in general

#42

Post by rbehrends »

fosap wrote: post #28
walshemj wrote: post #18

Rather ironic as Finland has a comprehensive schooling system he seems to be arguing for selective schools by the back door. Though in Finland do seem to have the same rigid vocational / academic track similar to Germany where going to the wrong sort of school locks you out of or makes it very hard to go to the top universities. And comparing his experience a tiny European country with a small and homogenous populati…

I'm German. I'm not sure what you are talking about. You do need to graduate a "Gymnasium" (years 5-12 or 13, right after elementary school). But any "Gymnasium" will do. Every town has a "Gymnasium", you don't have to move or bake cookies. However, the "Gymnasium" is just one three schools. Only about 30% of students attend. If your marks get too bad you have to leave for "lower" school. On the other hand it's possi…

This is what tracking means -- that you get "sorted" into either they "Gymnasium", "Realschule", or "Hauptschule" track after fourth grade. However, this is not what happens in Finland. In Finland, everybody gets the same basic education until age 16, then picks either general upper secondary or vocational upper secondary education (note that vocational upper secondary education does not bar you from attending a university, despite what the GP thinks).

However, what he mostly doesn't seem to realize is that Germany (or Finland, for this matter) does not really have the same type of highly competitive admission process for its universities as the United States [1].

For example, the Karlsruhe Institute of Technology, one of the best German universities to study computer science at (according to a recent ranking, the best), has open admission for its CS Bachelor program.

[1] The Bologna Process americanized the system a bit, but it's still mostly about managing supply and demand. If you can't hack it, you won't graduate, but admission is not particularly selective, especially not at the Bachelor level.

Re: Linus on Oregon HB 2748 and US education in general

#43

Post by andrewflnr »

davidw wrote: post #7

Linus talking about politics is... still politics, even if one happens to agree with him.

HN seems to have a soft spot for educational policy. This makes sense when you consider the importance of education for both a hacker's work and play.

Re: Linus on Oregon HB 2748 and US education in general

#44

Post by Jare »

jiggy2011 wrote: post #41
nthj wrote: post #40

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Surely with homeschooling kids are going to get even more inconsistent results due to radically varying teaching abilities and knowledge of parents? Some homeschooling parents might say that (1) the numbers play in their favor (no teacher would argue that it's far easier to teach 2 kids than 20), (2) that teaching a kid how to teach himself is far more important than having a teacher with a vast array of knowledge,…

I wouldn't put much faith in young children being able to direct their own learning effectively. I'm significantly older and I'm still not very good at it.

You need to meet some homeschooled children. The ones I have seen were, without exception, incredibly curious, eager and organized when it came to learning.

Re: Linus on Oregon HB 2748 and US education in general

#45

Post by bokonist »

taylodl wrote: post #20

Linus is now seeing firsthand that opportunity is not equal in the United States. You typically need to have attended a good university to get a good job and to get into a good university you need to have graduated from a good secondary school - which you need to have paid for either through tuition or taxes. The goal is to keep the wealth concentrated in the already wealthy. That's how it works here in the United St…

"I think we really need to understand the problem: public schools are locally funded and operated and small locales can use real estate to become exclusive."

Implicitly, you are saying that the real problem is that public schools do not receive enough funding. Is that correct?

If the problem is that public schools are not getting enough money, how much money should they get? How much should be spent per pupil in order to give everyone a great education? It is ok to give a different answer for different demographics - perhaps inner city schools where parents can provide less support need $Y, while wealthy suburban districts need $X dollar. But if your claim is that the current amount of funding is too little, then you should be able to state actual numbers for $X and $Y.

Re: Linus on Oregon HB 2748 and US education in general

#46

Post by jiggy2011 »

Jare wrote: post #44
jiggy2011 wrote: post #41

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I wouldn't put much faith in young children being able to direct their own learning effectively. I'm significantly older and I'm still not very good at it.

You need to meet some homeschooled children. The ones I have seen were, without exception, incredibly curious, eager and organized when it came to learning.

There is likely confirmation bias in children who's parents have opted for homeschooling because that's what they decide to do.

Forcing ill equipped parents into home-schooling by making the local schooling suck so hard that they have no choice would paint a different picture I think.

Re: Linus on Oregon HB 2748 and US education in general

#47

Post by derda »

rbehrends wrote: post #42
fosap wrote: post #28

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm German. I'm not sure what you are talking about. You do need to graduate a "Gymnasium" (years 5-12 or 13, right after elementary school). But any "Gymnasium" will do. Every town has a "Gymnasium", you don't have to move or bake cookies. However, the "Gymnasium" is just one three schools. Only about 30% of students attend. If your marks get too bad you have to leave for "lower" school. On the other hand it's possi…

This is what tracking means -- that you get "sorted" into either they "Gymnasium", "Realschule", or "Hauptschule" track after fourth grade. However, this is not what happens in Finland. In Finland, everybody gets the same basic education until age 16, then picks either general upper secondary or vocational upper secondary education (note that vocational upper secondary education does not bar you from attending a univ…

> However, what he mostly doesn't seem to realize is that Germany (or Finland, for this matter) does not really have the same type of highly competitive admission process for its universities as the United States [1].

Well that is because the Abitur (german high-school diploma) is regarded equally no matter which school you attended. From what I gathered the US high school diploma is worth pretty much nothing, without knowing somewhing about the school and/or a high amout of AP-classes. Compared to the German degrees, I'd argue that its actually closer to Realschule (the 10yr grade, which does not qualify for university), than abitur. (Except you are at a top-notch school and take lots of AP-classes)...

Re: Linus on Oregon HB 2748 and US education in general

#48

Post by fosap »

robomartin wrote: post #38
taylodl wrote: post #20

Linus is now seeing firsthand that opportunity is not equal in the United States. You typically need to have attended a good university to get a good job and to get into a good university you need to have graduated from a good secondary school - which you need to have paid for either through tuition or taxes. The goal is to keep the wealth concentrated in the already wealthy. That's how it works here in the United St…

> The goal is to keep the wealth concentrated in the already wealthy. I don't understand this kind of thinking. Perhaps it isn't what you meant. My apologies if that isn't the case. I have heard and read this kind of sentiment before. Is the idea that the rich somehow conspire to do as you suggest? If so, how does that work? Did Steve Jobs receive a letter once his net worth passed a certain threshold inviting him to…

>Is the idea that the rich somehow conspire to do as you suggest?

Not a conspiracy. See, everybody wants a good education for their children. Everybody invests, but the rich obviously spend more money. And that buy their children a better education and better jobs earning higher wages. Isn't that obvious?

> How about Bill Gates or the many other rich folk?

That is called anecdotal evidence. There is no cast system in America, but the American dream is not dead, but close. The social mobility in Europe is higher.

> What would happen if teachers had to have advanced degrees and even some real world experience before being able to teach?

That would be great, but that won't be for free. But i think it would pay off.

Re: Linus on Oregon HB 2748 and US education in general

#49

Post by _delirium »

Jare wrote: post #44
jiggy2011 wrote: post #41

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I wouldn't put much faith in young children being able to direct their own learning effectively. I'm significantly older and I'm still not very good at it.

You need to meet some homeschooled children. The ones I have seen were, without exception, incredibly curious, eager and organized when it came to learning.

I have met a number, but my experiences are more mixed.

There are some great outcomes, but mostly from children who were homeschooled because they had parents who were quite passionate about education. In many cases the parents were big on constructivist learning theory and able to set up a good environment that cultivates this kind of self-directed learning. My own parents were pretty into that, but rather than home-schooling me, sent me to a Montessori school when I was young, and then regular public schools when older, supplemented with some extracurricular stuff like museums and computers on weekends (in the '80s, Logo tied in very explicitly to constructivist education). That worked out ok, and I feel I benefited from having both the school and the home environments. But I can certainly believe homeschooling would've turned out ok, too.

Another large group (in the U.S.) and with a very different profile are kids who are homeschooled because their parents are very passionate about politics and/or religion. This could be any kind of politics (e.g. homeschooling anarchists), but in practice the largest group are conservative Christians convinced that the public schools are indoctrinating their kids with liberal secularism. That does not turn out as well, and often produces extremely sheltered kids who live in an odd kind of parallel universe where they read only things written specifically for Christian homeschoolers (there is an entire niche industry supporting this). They go to social events, too, but generally social events with other Christian homeschoolers. I've met a few of them, and they have pretty negative views on homeschooling, and many think it shouldn't have been legal. Admittedly I met mostly the ones who broke free of it around college by refusing to attend a Christian college (which would be the expected next step).

So I have pretty mixed opinions; I think homeschooling can work if the parents are quite open-minded, and actively encourage the kids to explore lots of new ideas, not necessarily only ideas the parents themselves like. But I think it can be quite unhealthy for kids not to have an outlet a few hours a day away from their parents, in the case where the parents are more controlling. A public school assigning something provides a nice excuse for students to read things their parents don't like because hey, it's for school.

I'm not sure how it would turn out if it were neither of those two cases, but just parents who felt they had to do it because the local schools sucked too much, rather than out of any special passion for homeschooling.

Re: Linus on Oregon HB 2748 and US education in general

#50

Post by nawitus »

robomartin wrote: post #38
taylodl wrote: post #20

Linus is now seeing firsthand that opportunity is not equal in the United States. You typically need to have attended a good university to get a good job and to get into a good university you need to have graduated from a good secondary school - which you need to have paid for either through tuition or taxes. The goal is to keep the wealth concentrated in the already wealthy. That's how it works here in the United St…

> The goal is to keep the wealth concentrated in the already wealthy. I don't understand this kind of thinking. Perhaps it isn't what you meant. My apologies if that isn't the case. I have heard and read this kind of sentiment before. Is the idea that the rich somehow conspire to do as you suggest? If so, how does that work? Did Steve Jobs receive a letter once his net worth passed a certain threshold inviting him to…

" What would happen if teachers were not unionized and had to compete for their jobs? What would happen if teachers lived in a true meritocracy without a sure protections?"

Incidentally, practically every teacher in Finland belongs to an union, and it's unheard of to fire teachers on the basis of bad job performance. A true rationalist looks at the empirical evidence regardless of ideological opinions. You may not "like" the fact that teacher's unions are widespread in many countries which outrank the USA in education. Sometimes the American way of firing people is not the correct fix.

" What would happen if teachers had to have advanced degrees and even some real world experience before being able to teach?"

Now that's something I agree with. Teachers in Finland have Master's degrees, and all teachers have real-world experience by teaching in real schools ("normaalikoulut") during their studies.

"Why do we have a system that disallows rapid goals-oriented experiments with realistic measurable metrics and a goal to weed out those who are not serving our children?"

The problem is that you can't measure learning very well. Measuring test scores means that the teachers will teach the kids to do well on tests instead of learning.

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