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Linus on Oregon HB 2748 and US education in general

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Re: Linus on Oregon HB 2748 and US education in general

#21

Post by jiggy2011 »

manaskarekar wrote: post #14
jiggy2011 wrote: post #5

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Surely with homeschooling kids are going to get even more inconsistent results due to radically varying teaching abilities and knowledge of parents? Not to mention severely biased curricular, I'm sure HN kids would all know haskell by the time they were 9 but what about poetry , sports and history?

1. The parents aren't the ones who are expected to teach, they are expected to select online(or off) "coursework." So a parent doesn't have to be proficient in what he expects his child to learn. 2. Does everyone have to know everything? Isn't that a line between good parenting and bad parenting. If you think your kid will benefit from arts and history and what not, you will make sure they go through those courses. W…

It's one thing to use online courseware as a supplement to education but another to remove a teacher who can sit next to a student and explain things they are having trouble with in different ways and work through problems with them.

I think it's important to have some general grounding in a variety of subjects. I certainly wouldn't rely on all parents (who themselves may have failed in education) to be able to choose a good balanced curriculum for their children.

Re: Linus on Oregon HB 2748 and US education in general

#22

Post by asveikau »

I don't know why Linus says that Americans blindly accept the crappiness. Perhaps they accept it because its systemic nature makes a hard thing to fix, but the acceptance isn't blind. Most smart people I know in this country seem to have had some clash with the school system in some form or another. Linus talks mostly about funding, but there's also the huge problem that schools don't seem to be teaching math and science, or anything for that matter, very well. For me personally, thinking back to my youth, I think the most important lesson I learned in school was to be cynical and not trust people in positions of authority, to go off and do things on your own instead of relying on them to catch up with you, which is a helpful lesson but probably not one that you'd want to need to discover so young.

On another topic, I can't help but think some of his description of the American acceptance of the brokenness has something to do with his setting of the northwest. When I lived in Seattle I was really shocked at how unwilling people were to question the status quo, especially when it came to things that could be changed by political action. On topics where more aggressive east coasters would loudly complain or maneuver around, apathy and letting things go as they had been seemed to be the default for most things. Of course the education problem is a national one and these latter traits are not unknown to other parts of the country. But the northwest is less cynical, and more content to let things just drift.

Re: Linus on Oregon HB 2748 and US education in general

#23

Post by erichocean »

Taylorious wrote: post #19
erichocean wrote: post #13

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> The social aspect can be addressed by having physical activity clubs/gatherings/groups/centers. I don't know if schools already do this, They do. Really, the negative comments here on homeschooling are staggeringly out of date. Go look at K12.[0] That's what "homeschoolers" in the State of California use, through something called CAVA. I've got two boys in CAVA and one boy in regular public school. The K12 courses…

Were you homeschooled? Because I was, and all though I don't want to go into extensive detail on why I despise it, I will just say that parents HS because they think they know what's best for their children, but they often don't. I lived in an area with a horrible school district, so I understand why parents in school districts like that think they can do better, but in reality HS parents should be putting their ener…

K12/CAVA is "public school". It's the normal, California public school system -- it's just a charter school.

But no, I wasn't home-schooled. I doubt it would have been a good choice pre-Internet, to be honest.

Today, I firmly believe that CAVA is the best choice for kids in California if the goal of school is to actually educate them, especially pre-HS, vs. just be state-provided day care. The K12 curriculum and materials are amazingly good. And they're free -- like I said, it's public school. :)

Re: Linus on Oregon HB 2748 and US education in general

#24

Post by guylhem »

jiggy2011 wrote: post #5
manaskarekar wrote: post #2

The alternative many will be forced to take will be Homeschooling + Online Courses, which is great! À la carte education sounds much more useful than a buffet of stuff selected by someone else for you.

Surely with homeschooling kids are going to get even more inconsistent results due to radically varying teaching abilities and knowledge of parents? Not to mention severely biased curricular, I'm sure HN kids would all know haskell by the time they were 9 but what about poetry , sports and history?

> Not to mention severely biased curricular, I'm sure HN kids would all know haskell by the time they were 9 but what about poetry , sports and history?

A poor education in sports may reduce potential profits of future pro-athletes and students looking for a scholarship.

For others, I'm not sure. Also, not knowing about poetry and history won't harm.

In fact, in term of opportunity costs, it might be a better move NOT to touch these subjects altogether to spend more time on things that matter, or at least on topics that matter a little bit more than these subjects.

Haskell may not be that popular at the moment, but that may change in the future (haskell-like language could emerge!) and still at the moment I'm sure there are paying jobs for people with haskell fluency than for people who are really really good in poetry and history.

Re: Linus on Oregon HB 2748 and US education in general

#25

Post by erichocean »

kamkazemoose wrote: post #17
clicks wrote: post #3

Earlier quoted context omitted.

So, one of the big reasons homeschooling isn't more prevalent is that increasingly both parents have to work. Maybe a new, not before seen alternative is some sort of a quasi-daycare institution which has authority figures not teaching but just making sure the kids are focusing on their online courses and not horsing around! And only so occasionally answering questions the kids ask. Because you're still in an environ…

I just wonder how effective that would be. I think kids would have a hard time focusing in front of a computer, and being lectured to. I think a large part of the elementary school education is working on activities and worksheets, especially in groups. I'm not sure you can replicate that in an online course, and I just wonder how effective an online course could be for younger kids. I'd actually be interested in see…

CAVA is the CA Virtual Academy using the K12 curriculum, and despite having a higher-than-normal number of "special needs" students, does better on standardized tests than the other public schools in CA. (CAVA is a charter school, and thus part of the public school system. Anyone with kids in CA can sign up for it, and everything is paid for -- they even pay for Internet and give you a computer.)

In my experience, CAVA is very effective in all the areas you've mentioned. And they do weekly in person group activities as well, plus field trips, etc.

I honestly don't know anyone in CAVA who's wanted to go back to sending their kids to day care^HHHHHHHHpublic school.

Re: Linus on Oregon HB 2748 and US education in general

#27

Post by spikels »

jmspring wrote: post #11

I can't find the original story I heard a couple of weeks ago (on the radio), but another egregious sign of the state of public education in the US -- people are jailed for lying about their address in hopes of getting their child into a better school. The story I recall hearing a couple of weeks ago was about a woman who was periodically homeless and used the address of her baby sitter (or something like that) to ge…

I think you are probably talking about the story linked below. Very sad but I guess it is a form of fraud and theft.

Certainly it indicates something is wrong with our current education system but there are so much other evidence (e.g. dropout rates, test scores, college preparedness) that this is hardly news.

http://www.ctpost.com/news/article/Tanya-McDowell-sentenced-...

Re: Linus on Oregon HB 2748 and US education in general

#28

Post by fosap »

walshemj wrote: post #18

Rather ironic as Finland has a comprehensive schooling system he seems to be arguing for selective schools by the back door. Though in Finland do seem to have the same rigid vocational / academic track similar to Germany where going to the wrong sort of school locks you out of or makes it very hard to go to the top universities. And comparing his experience a tiny European country with a small and homogenous populati…

I'm German. I'm not sure what you are talking about. You do need to graduate a "Gymnasium" (years 5-12 or 13, right after elementary school). But any "Gymnasium" will do. Every town has a "Gymnasium", you don't have to move or bake cookies.

However, the "Gymnasium" is just one three schools. Only about 30% of students attend. If your marks get too bad you have to leave for "lower" school. On the other hand it's possible to attend a "Gymnasium" of pupils of a "lower" school if they have good grades. (About 20% of my final class came form "lower" schools.)

The German system is a kind of elitist. And it's criticized that the parents income is too important. But it is elitist regarding to your marks, and not your district.

Re: Linus on Oregon HB 2748 and US education in general

#29

Post by azernik »

walshemj wrote: post #18

Rather ironic as Finland has a comprehensive schooling system he seems to be arguing for selective schools by the back door. Though in Finland do seem to have the same rigid vocational / academic track similar to Germany where going to the wrong sort of school locks you out of or makes it very hard to go to the top universities. And comparing his experience a tiny European country with a small and homogenous populati…

Except that this bill won't create a comprehensive school system (which Linus clearly is in favor of) - it's just mess up the backdoor selective schooling system that at least serves 10-20% of the students. Turns out there's a third option - no functioning education at all.

Re: Linus on Oregon HB 2748 and US education in general

#30

Post by newbie12 »

taylodl wrote: post #20

Linus is now seeing firsthand that opportunity is not equal in the United States. You typically need to have attended a good university to get a good job and to get into a good university you need to have graduated from a good secondary school - which you need to have paid for either through tuition or taxes. The goal is to keep the wealth concentrated in the already wealthy. That's how it works here in the United St…

Not sure where you live, but most school districts are already a combination of county and state funding. The state funding does the work of helping poorer districts, and targeted federal funding in turn helps poor states. You are assuming that money is the problem, when the reality is that the US spends far more per student than Finland.

http://rossieronline.usc.edu/u-s-education-versus-the-world-...

In fact, some of the worst performing districts in America are also the most well-funded, like the District of Columbia.

The problem is the teachers unions control the delivery system, and swaths of American culture that don't value education.

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