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PyCon Code of Conduct changed to avoid public shaming

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Re: PyCon Code of Conduct changed to avoid public shaming

#281

Post by danielweber »

Zikes wrote: post #78
pyre wrote: post #39

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Public shaming is a tool in the kit, but in this case it was the first one that she reached for. From her blog post, it sounded like it was out of frustration over other incidences (maybe even worse cases of offence / harassment) that she had also ignored. It was the 'straw that broke the camel's back' so to speak, and unleashed her pent up anger/frustration. Personally, I think that there were other avenues to pursu…

I very reluctantly have to agree that it is a tool in the kit, however as far as tools go I would have to liken it to resorting to a government coup because that pothole you reported last week still hasn't been filled. Sure it might be necessary in extreme situations, but equally extreme discretion and forethought is absolutely necessary. As to it being a culmination of other offenses, that's a bit too speculatory fo…

Public shaming is essentially an appeal to the mob. And mobs are very dangerous.

The API for class InternetMob has exactly one function call: start(). You can't tell if it succeeded or failed, or if it will succeed later. You cannot stop it after it has started. Even if it succeeds in going after your initial target, it may then turn on someone else you do like, or even yourself.

Re: PyCon Code of Conduct changed to avoid public shaming

#283

Post by Domenic_S »

MartinCron wrote: post #279
dos1 wrote: post #27

One of the reasons I've taken an interest in this whole fiasco is that I occasionally make "colorful" jokes. Not dissimilar from the two guys at PyCon. I make every attempt to keep these jokes private between my friends and I, but I'm sure others have heard me make them. Some people might find them funny, others may be offended. It scares me to think that making an offhand penis joke could result in being publicly ou…

I do NOT believe that ANYONE should suffer the wrath of the Internet I would encourage everyone to react more slowly and deliberately to stories like this that outrage them. This applies to companies firing people as well as people using the complex facts to support their existing points of view. Slow down, everyone. Injustice will still be there for you after your blood pressure goes down.

Makes me wonder if our glacial justice system in the US is intentional, to avoid this kind of thing.

Re: PyCon Code of Conduct changed to avoid public shaming

#284

Post by sigzero »

sp332 wrote: post #74
theorique wrote: post #33

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Which gets to the definition of harassment, right? Were these guys in a private, joking conversation harassing or simply overheard by accident? Think fast ... your job could depend on it.

They were in the middle of an auditorium, which is the opposite of private. Regardless of whether it constitutes harassment, the conference has a specific policy against it. Everyone involved said he was wrong and she was right, including they guy, who apologized in person and later in public on HN. She didn't ask for him to be fired.

"They were in the middle of an auditorium, which is the opposite of private."

I do not agree with you at all. If I am at a conference with a friend and we are sitting in an auditorium and he and are I chatting about something between us, regardless of whether you can hear it or not, IS a private conversation. Private here does NOT mean nobody can hear you. It means there are very specific people involved in the conversation.

Re: PyCon Code of Conduct changed to avoid public shaming

#285

Post by drharris »

Cushman wrote: post #199
drharris wrote: post #170

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Well, let's say I'm offended by your username. I'm so offended that I feel the proper punishment should be paying reparations of no less than $1M to the charity of my choice. Is it my offense taken by your username a fair offense? What standard is used to determine what offenses are legitimate, and what determines a proper punishment for that offense. Furthermore, how are you to know in advance that your username is…

Sure, and let's say that I'm offended by your face, and I want a million dollars for that . How do we resolve this? It seems to me that we exist in a community that has a pretty well-evolved process for determining what is reasonable.

We take it to court, and if it doesn't fit within the boundaries of law, a judge has two options: toss out the case, or attempt to expand the boundaries of law by interpreting existing law in a new way. If the former, we are at an impasse, so how can we determine if our offenses are legitimate or not? If the latter, then now it is up to a judge and/or jury to use their subjective reasoning to pass judgment on whether the offense is legitimate.

The point I'm getting around to is that everyone tosses about objective judgments for people who cause subjective offenses. To me, this is pretty illogical. Most times, what we perceive as legitimate offenses are those by people who are the loudest, most influential, or greatest in number. It has very little to do with what the truth is, rather an opinion of the masses that has been manipulated that way.

Re: PyCon Code of Conduct changed to avoid public shaming

#286

Post by geebee »

CodeMage wrote: post #76
dos1 wrote: post #27

One of the reasons I've taken an interest in this whole fiasco is that I occasionally make "colorful" jokes. Not dissimilar from the two guys at PyCon. I make every attempt to keep these jokes private between my friends and I, but I'm sure others have heard me make them. Some people might find them funny, others may be offended. It scares me to think that making an offhand penis joke could result in being publicly ou…

I believe she's being a hypocrite by taking offense one day, and making her own penis joke on Twitter the next. I've seen that argument tossed about. There's a difference between reading someone's Twitter stream and hearing someone's joke while sitting in the audience at a convention. The former is reading content from someone you chose to follow, the latter is the equivalent of having people talk behind you in a mov…

There's a difference between reading someone's Twitter stream and hearing someone's joke while sitting in the audience at a convention.

At the conference: was this a quiet, whispered joke between two people overheard by someone determined to eavesdrop, or was it make in voices loud enough that people sitting nearby had no choice but to listen? Or somewhere in between?

On the twitter feed: was this more of a personal twitter account that was technically public but clearly intended for friends, or was this an account representing someone in a professional capacity that might be followed purely for work-related reasons? Or somewhere in between?

The medium itself actually isn't the most relevant factor here. The context of the statement or tweet is probably more important.

Re: PyCon Code of Conduct changed to avoid public shaming

#287

Post by EvanKelly »

SeanDav wrote: post #185
mtrimpe wrote: post #137

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's not a private conversation. I can't even ignore the conversation of annoying people three seats down in the train. When people in the seat behind me will start talking during a conference there would be no way for me not to listen to their conversation.

Just because you have good hearing and/or are incapable of focusing on something else does not make the conversation less private. A private conversation is one that is intended to occur only between the parties involved. Your being able to hear it or not is irrelevant if the intention and expectation was that the conversation is meant to be between specific parties. I understand this is not completely black and whit…

You also can't ignore the history and social dynamics of women at tech conferences. There's a sordid history of misogyny at these things.

I remember just last year reading horrible accounts from either blackhat or defcon (can't remember which). I understand PyCon is almost certainly of a different breed, but the history can't be overlooked in this situation.

Re: PyCon Code of Conduct changed to avoid public shaming

#288

Post by hackinthebochs »

king_jester wrote: post #163
freehunter wrote: post #105

Earlier quoted context omitted.

She probably didn't want to get them fired. But it's hard to argue that she didn't want to cause them real damage, at the very least to their reputation. And it should be plainly obvious to someone with a media presence that anything negative they say about someone will ripple well beyond that person's own realm of control. Everyone says things in private they wouldn't want their employer to hear. People curse outsid…

> Everyone says things in private they wouldn't want their employer to hear. That's the difference in this case. The men in question were not in the personal life having a private discussion, they were attending a conference that their employer was a sponsor of and they were marked as being representatives of that sponsor company via their badges. They are already damaging their own and their company's reputation by…

It's already been established that the joke was not sexist. Please stop claiming that it was.

Re: PyCon Code of Conduct changed to avoid public shaming

#289

Post by MartinCron »

Zikes wrote: post #7

Should this open the door to a discussion about the ethics of public shaming?

It's a complex and multi-faceted ethical question. Involving issues of empathy, unintended consequences, power asymmetry, confirmation bias, and lynch-mob justice.

No. I don't think we're ready to have a discussion about that yet.

Re: PyCon Code of Conduct changed to avoid public shaming

#290

Post by MartinCron »

Domenic_S wrote: post #283
MartinCron wrote: post #279

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I do NOT believe that ANYONE should suffer the wrath of the Internet I would encourage everyone to react more slowly and deliberately to stories like this that outrage them. This applies to companies firing people as well as people using the complex facts to support their existing points of view. Slow down, everyone. Injustice will still be there for you after your blood pressure goes down.

Makes me wonder if our glacial justice system in the US is intentional, to avoid this kind of thing.

I'm sure that's a big part of it. Things like due process and jury trials are slow, but they're the best things we've got.
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