PyCon Code of Conduct changed to avoid public shaming • Hacker News Board

Re: PyCon Code of Conduct changed to avoid public shaming

#181

Post by king_jester » Thu, Mar 21, 2013, 4:17 PM UTC

shadowmint wrote: post #161

I think it's interesting that public shaming isn't the answer to problems, but that a lot of people don't seem to appreciate that. It's not just Adria. Remember John Scalsi and "When Gut-Boys Attack"? http://whatever.scalzi.com/2012/11/14/when-gut-boys-attack/ Same thing. Take a person, smash them publicly, and hope that the everyone watching will get the idea and stop doing that thing, because of fear of similar pun…

> I think it's interesting that public shaming isn't the answer to problems, but that a lot of people don't seem to appreciate that.

The main point for public airing of this information is to inform others of the attitudes and behaviors that exist and to provide evidence of an actual problem.

> 3) Engage with the people who are doing the wrong thing and try to correct their behavior so they become mini-champions of 'the right way' in their own community, thus spreading correct behavioral policy organically.

This only works if you are a member of the peer group of the people doing the wrong thing. In the case of adria richards, she is a woman of color addressing behavior that tends to come from men, so I don't think it is fair to say that this would be a realistic thing to do.

Re: PyCon Code of Conduct changed to avoid public shaming

#182

Post by surge » Thu, Mar 21, 2013, 4:17 PM UTC

mtrimpe wrote: post #137

SeanDav wrote: post #116

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Since when did it become ok to vilify someone for a private conversation? A private conversation in a public area is still private. This woman was guilty of listening to a private conversation, taking some sort of offence and then going out of her way to publicly shame them. Anyone trying to defend her is not thinking very clearly. If you look at her own posting history she is guilty of off-colour jokes and downright…

It's not a private conversation. I can't even ignore the conversation of annoying people three seats down in the train. When people in the seat behind me will start talking during a conference there would be no way for me not to listen to their conversation.

It's a personal conversation then, in either case, its NOYB. Unless he was using actual obscene words, I don't get it. She can't be offended by behavior she herself publicly broadcasts on twitter to anyone who follows or reads her feed. A conversation is the same way, you can't help who chooses to sit next to you and eavesdrops on your conversation.

Re: PyCon Code of Conduct changed to avoid public shaming

#183

Post by jeltz » Thu, Mar 21, 2013, 4:17 PM UTC

malachismith wrote: post #107

The comment thread here is incredibly sad and depressing and perfectly illustrates how deeply misogyny is threaded through this community and industry. You might want to go and find a female friend and have them read what you wrote. I think their responses might be enlightening.

Please do not attack entire communities. Especially like now when there have been very few misogynist comments in this discussion.

Re: PyCon Code of Conduct changed to avoid public shaming

#184

Post by freehunter » Thu, Mar 21, 2013, 4:17 PM UTC

milkshakes wrote: post #9

danso wrote: post #6

> Note: Public shaming can be counter-productive to building a strong community. PyCon does not condone nor participate in such actions out of respect I think the "out of respect" is unnecessary and somewhat nonsensical. Out of respect for whom? I think it's fine to just say that PyCon, like any reasonable organization, doesn't participate or condone in such public shaming, period...because the reasons to not engage…

It's on Github... Fork it and make a pull request?

Easy with that word...

Re: PyCon Code of Conduct changed to avoid public shaming

#185

Post by SeanDav » Thu, Mar 21, 2013, 4:17 PM UTC

mtrimpe wrote: post #137

SeanDav wrote: post #116

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Since when did it become ok to vilify someone for a private conversation? A private conversation in a public area is still private. This woman was guilty of listening to a private conversation, taking some sort of offence and then going out of her way to publicly shame them. Anyone trying to defend her is not thinking very clearly. If you look at her own posting history she is guilty of off-colour jokes and downright…

It's not a private conversation. I can't even ignore the conversation of annoying people three seats down in the train. When people in the seat behind me will start talking during a conference there would be no way for me not to listen to their conversation.

Just because you have good hearing and/or are incapable of focusing on something else does not make the conversation less private.

A private conversation is one that is intended to occur only between the parties involved. Your being able to hear it or not is irrelevant if the intention and expectation was that the conversation is meant to be between specific parties.

I understand this is not completely black and white, but fail to understand why anyone should take offence at a conversation they were not meant to be a part of and where they don't understand the history and social dynamics of the people involved in the conversation.

I can think of all kinds of situations where a private conversation, if overheard and taken out of context could be devastating to those involved.

Re: PyCon Code of Conduct changed to avoid public shaming

#186

Post by growse » Thu, Mar 21, 2013, 4:18 PM UTC

rdtsc wrote: post #95

OoTheNigerian wrote: post #26

After reading all sides of the story, I see why there is so much anger towards Adria. However, it is unacceptable for her or SendGrid to be attacked digitally. Adria did an arguably right thing in a wrong way at the wrong time. 1. Assuming the way she said it happened is correct, the guys behind her made a sexual (forking/fucking; Dongle/Penis) not sexist joke. If it were even to be seen as sexist, it was towards men…

> Adrea[sic] did an arguably right thing in a wrong way It seems she did 2 different things. 1) She reported an incident that made her feel uncomfortable. (I think she did the correct thing here, at least I agree with it) 2) She posted a face photo of some attendees from a sponsoring company, publicly (not just for PyCon attendees but for the whole world) along with an insult "ass clowns". [note: 2 came before 1 as w…

Isn't publishing someone's photo without their consent, like, illegal? I'm aware that copyright of the picture rests with the photographer, but if you want to publish someone's picture (and, as far as I understand it, tweeting is 'publishing'), don't you need their explicit consent?

Re: PyCon Code of Conduct changed to avoid public shaming

#187

Post by donohoe » Thu, Mar 21, 2013, 4:21 PM UTC

SeanDav wrote: post #116

CodeMage wrote: post #76

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I believe she's being a hypocrite by taking offense one day, and making her own penis joke on Twitter the next. I've seen that argument tossed about. There's a difference between reading someone's Twitter stream and hearing someone's joke while sitting in the audience at a convention. The former is reading content from someone you chose to follow, the latter is the equivalent of having people talk behind you in a mov…

Since when did it become ok to vilify someone for a private conversation? A private conversation in a public area is still private. This woman was guilty of listening to a private conversation, taking some sort of offence and then going out of her way to publicly shame them. Anyone trying to defend her is not thinking very clearly. If you look at her own posting history she is guilty of off-colour jokes and downright…

  The whole thing smacks of hypocrisy and self publication

I don't think so. I think she has just made a mistake.

Re: PyCon Code of Conduct changed to avoid public shaming

#188

Post by mtrimpe » Thu, Mar 21, 2013, 4:21 PM UTC

cobrausn wrote: post #139

mtrimpe wrote: post #113

Earlier quoted context omitted.

When supporting women's right on Hacker News you tend to get a disproportionate number of downvotes compared to 'normal' topics. That means that if your comment usually would just not get any upvotes (which yours wouldn't since it wasn't terribly well written) you'll suddenly get into negative point territory on these issues. If you look you'll be able to find other comments as well which easily pass the 'constructiv…

Your first statement is an unprovable assertion. He might get an equal number of upvotes from Adriana-supporting hardliners, but perhaps they are just outnumbered. You are trying to frame this conversation in terms of 'you support women in tech if you make apologist comments for Adriana, you are a hardliner if you think she overreacted and should be brought to account'. It's a bit of a false dichotomy. I think this i…

I've adjusted my first statement to be more neutral.

As for your last sentence, I can tell from experience that threads on womens rights topics tend to be more polarized in general and cause a lot more downvoting in general which is exactly the point I was trying to make initially.

Re: PyCon Code of Conduct changed to avoid public shaming

#189

Post by surge » Thu, Mar 21, 2013, 4:22 PM UTC

jack_trades wrote: post #175

dos1 wrote: post #27

One of the reasons I've taken an interest in this whole fiasco is that I occasionally make "colorful" jokes. Not dissimilar from the two guys at PyCon. I make every attempt to keep these jokes private between my friends and I, but I'm sure others have heard me make them. Some people might find them funny, others may be offended. It scares me to think that making an offhand penis joke could result in being publicly ou…

Public shame is not a problem. Public shame is less about an individual and more about sharing expectations with a community. Shame on people who can't help but blurt out clumsy penis jokes in essentially tight quarters at a professional conference. Go and make colorful jokes everywhere and then defend yourself on twitter. Who's stopping you/them? They have twitter accounts, no? Represent yourselves. More words tell…

PyCon is a conference for Python programmers, professional and amateur, no where is the term "professionals only" stated. It's a conference for people who have an interest in Python.

If it is, maybe I missed the business attire requirement, and requirement that you have to be a professional Python programmer sent as a representative of a company to attend.

There are professional conferences, very corporate in nature, PyCon is not one of them.

It's not a professional conference any more then a Star Trek convention is professional.

Re: PyCon Code of Conduct changed to avoid public shaming

#190

Post by afreak » Thu, Mar 21, 2013, 4:23 PM UTC

Since when does everyone have the right to being offended?

To put this into context, Adria is most certainly allowed to be bothered the comments made during this conversation. However, there has to be a distinction between whether or not this is private or public.

If this fellow went on stage and then started to make these jokes, it could be considered inappropriate and as a result she would in my mind have a valid complaint. It is similar to how Michael Richards made some rather off-colour remarks about a certain ethnicity on stage, which as a result ruined his career. If he had made these comments in private, I'd imagine that he'd still be making terrible attempts at sitcom pilots.

However, when it is a conversation between two parties where she wasn't included but just ended up overhearing it, then she has no right to complain. These guys may be obnoxious to you, but you can remove yourself from the situation quite easily. Tweeting a photo of them was uncalled for however, but she could have still made a photo-less quip about them which would have been appropriate.

Public shaming people for their private conversations is uncalled for when it is specifically targeted. Adria doesn't need to apologise for being bothered over it, but she certainly should for going about it the way she did.

[edit]

Sendgrid responded:

Effective immediately, SendGrid has terminated the employment of Adria Richards. While we generally are sensitive and confidential with respect to employee matters, the situation has taken on a public nature. We have taken action that we believe is in the overall best interests of SendGrid, its employees, and our customers. As we continue to process the vast amount of information, we will post something more comprehensive.