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PyCon Code of Conduct changed to avoid public shaming

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Re: PyCon Code of Conduct changed to avoid public shaming

#131

Post by freehunter »

uptown wrote: post #99
jasonlotito wrote: post #83

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Public shaming was not the right way to handle the situation. I find it odd then that the mob went after Adria, doing exactly what they are calling her out for doing, and publicly shaming her. Saying that she started it, or that two wrongs make a right, or any like that is only highlighting the hypocrisy.

One distinction is that the comments made by the developer were directed at his colleague, while her tweet was directed to the public, or at the very least to those that followed her on Twitter at the time of her tweet.

That's the distinction. The joker made a private comment, which was made public by a third party. Adria made a public statement. There's no hypocrisy here; Adria wanted attention to her comment.

Re: PyCon Code of Conduct changed to avoid public shaming

#132

Post by mtrimpe »

aviraldg wrote: post #67
imsofuture wrote: post #56

Earlier quoted context omitted.

1) You don't get to tell someone what is offensive to them. 2) Totally agree, it was not a wise choice. 3) You don't get to tell someone what is offensive to them. 4) You don't get to tell someone what is offensive to them. 5) You don't get to tell someone what is offensive to them. 6) It's true, not all the best choices were made.

Then that someone doesn't get to publicly shame me for what is offensive to them, and doesn't have the right to ask me to stop. My joke. Not meant for you. Stop listening.

Except that you can't stop listening because you're in a public situation!

I've sat through some train rides myself where I had to listen to people having 'private conversations' riddled with jokes about gay people.

I can tell you that will make your blood boil. I just got up and moved away, but doing that at PyCon during a talk is quite a bit harder.

Re: PyCon Code of Conduct changed to avoid public shaming

#133

Post by rburhum »

Having experienced PyCon for the first time this year, I am extremely saddened by how these events have unfolded. Ironically, I think this particular issue is eclipsing how female and kid friendly this conference is.

I have attended and spoken and several conferences (probably reaching the upper 80s) and this year's PyCon was more female-supportive than any other conference I have ever attended (Google IO, OSCON, WWDC, Where, BarCamps, etc etc).

Honestly, I was (happily) surprised about how many women attended and spoke. 20%! Of course, this number may seem low if you just blur it out, but in our industry, if you have ever attended any other tech conference, you will realize why 20% is such a high number.

The amount of attention and support PyLadies got from the PyCon/Python community was nothing short of outstanding. I sat during the PyCon PyLadies Fundraiser auction. I saw how crappy card games and posters signed by Guido and PyCon organizers sold for $300. I saw how the community managed to get "A 30-min Walk from Jack Dorsey" as one of the things to be auctioned. You don't just get that an item like that by sitting idle. Somebody from the PyCon community had to pull some strings and go through some efforts to get that for PyLadies. Heck, some guy, 1hr before the auction just gave his personal Chromebook for auction because he wanted to help the PyLadies cause. PyLadies raised 10K in less than 2hrs. All community-driven. I have never seen - in any conference - a community putting so much effort to push the goal of increasing women in tech. Never.

And yet all this drama is painting such a different picture of what I would consider the best conference I have ever attended. The biggest effort I have seen for women in tech, out-shadowed by a silly penis joke and all the drama that ensued after that.

To the PyCon organizers and PyLadies community as a whole: Don't let this get to you. You did an amazing job. To me, it was such an inspiring conference, that it will always be in my schedule. The large amount of kids coding in python and playing with their Raspberry Pis, the ad-hoc tech donations that were being done teachers, the support to PyLadies, all that stuff that really matters, did not go unnoticed. It is just that we are not as loud as the rest. But we care. Thank you!!!

Re: PyCon Code of Conduct changed to avoid public shaming

#134

Post by giardini »

OoTheNigerian wrote: post #26

After reading all sides of the story, I see why there is so much anger towards Adria. However, it is unacceptable for her or SendGrid to be attacked digitally. Adria did an arguably right thing in a wrong way at the wrong time. 1. Assuming the way she said it happened is correct, the guys behind her made a sexual (forking/fucking; Dongle/Penis) not sexist joke. If it were even to be seen as sexist, it was towards men…

"However, it is unacceptable for her or SendGrid to be attacked digitally."

She could have simply changed seats but chose to use digital methods to publicly humiliate two people, one of whom was consequently fired apparently.

"What's good for the gander is good for the goose."

BTW isn't this rather Orwellian? Anything you say anywhere can be dredged into view of the public? Is privacy possible anymore?

Re: PyCon Code of Conduct changed to avoid public shaming

#135

Post by shocks »

The problem is not PyCon. This is not an issue that should be solved by changing a code of conduct.

This is a problem with a person and her over zealous and ridiculous actions.

Let's be clear here, there should be nothing wrong with making dick jokes to your friend. Did he say "Haha, look at these dongles. They look like dicks. But we don't need them because have dicks! Maybe they should give these to the women so they can be better programmers with big dicks like us."? No.

We are living in a world where people increasingly feel the need to be "personally offended" by things that don't even involve them.

What if the male in question made an Englishman, Irishman, and Scotishman joke? Hell, they're pretty fucking funny! And you know what? They involve the Englishman doing something desperately stupid. Being an Englishman, am I offended? Fuck no.

This entire situation is beyond ridiculous.

Re: PyCon Code of Conduct changed to avoid public shaming

#136

Post by poutine »

MattBearman wrote: post #65
JulianMorrison wrote: post #11

I disagree. Public shaming is the right way to make harassers actually fear the consequences (to their career, for example).

That may or may not be true, but it's not really relevant to this. Adria wasn't harassed, she over heard something, and took offence to it. That's her problem. When ever someone claims to be offended, I'm always reminded of Stephen Fry's excellent response - http://imgur.com/EX5v4

Exactly. Penn and Teller did a bit on it too: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2bwGsOBTlhE

So fucking what, indeed.

Re: PyCon Code of Conduct changed to avoid public shaming

#137

Post by mtrimpe »

SeanDav wrote: post #116
CodeMage wrote: post #76

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I believe she's being a hypocrite by taking offense one day, and making her own penis joke on Twitter the next. I've seen that argument tossed about. There's a difference between reading someone's Twitter stream and hearing someone's joke while sitting in the audience at a convention. The former is reading content from someone you chose to follow, the latter is the equivalent of having people talk behind you in a mov…

Since when did it become ok to vilify someone for a private conversation? A private conversation in a public area is still private. This woman was guilty of listening to a private conversation, taking some sort of offence and then going out of her way to publicly shame them. Anyone trying to defend her is not thinking very clearly. If you look at her own posting history she is guilty of off-colour jokes and downright…

It's not a private conversation.

I can't even ignore the conversation of annoying people three seats down in the train. When people in the seat behind me will start talking during a conference there would be no way for me not to listen to their conversation.

Re: PyCon Code of Conduct changed to avoid public shaming

#138

Post by belorn »

CodeMage wrote: post #76
dos1 wrote: post #27

One of the reasons I've taken an interest in this whole fiasco is that I occasionally make "colorful" jokes. Not dissimilar from the two guys at PyCon. I make every attempt to keep these jokes private between my friends and I, but I'm sure others have heard me make them. Some people might find them funny, others may be offended. It scares me to think that making an offhand penis joke could result in being publicly ou…

I believe she's being a hypocrite by taking offense one day, and making her own penis joke on Twitter the next. I've seen that argument tossed about. There's a difference between reading someone's Twitter stream and hearing someone's joke while sitting in the audience at a convention. The former is reading content from someone you chose to follow, the latter is the equivalent of having people talk behind you in a mov…

And here we have the center argument why some people don't go to a movie theaters. Its noisy. The volume is not set to a personal setting. Its crowded (and by definition, again noisy). While one can ask extra loud people to tone it down, you can't eliminate all sound a crowd has. So long people talk to just the person next to them, that is often considered acceptable. The only other option is to view the movie at home.

Re: PyCon Code of Conduct changed to avoid public shaming

#139

Post by cobrausn »

mtrimpe wrote: post #113
pfortuny wrote: post #73

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Have I said anything wrong?

When supporting women's right on Hacker News you tend to get a disproportionate number of downvotes compared to 'normal' topics. That means that if your comment usually would just not get any upvotes (which yours wouldn't since it wasn't terribly well written) you'll suddenly get into negative point territory on these issues. If you look you'll be able to find other comments as well which easily pass the 'constructiv…

Your first statement is an unprovable assertion. He might get an equal number of upvotes from Adriana-supporting hardliners, but perhaps they are just outnumbered.

You are trying to frame this conversation in terms of 'you support women in tech if you make apologist comments for Adriana, you are a hardliner if you think she overreacted and should be brought to account'. It's a bit of a false dichotomy.

I think this is a particularly polarizing event that is causing a lot more downvoting than normally happens on HN.

Re: PyCon Code of Conduct changed to avoid public shaming

#140

Post by mkr-hn »

pyre wrote: post #71
imsofuture wrote: post #44

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What's amazing to me is the cognitive dissonance required to make the leap from Adria publicly outing someone (questionable, but not egregious given you know, the public venue) making an off-color joke to 'she got these people fired'. Their boss finding out what they said got them fired. Because what they said wasn't appropriate in the opinion of their employer. Period. Full stop.

| what they said wasn't appropriate in the | opinion of their employer There's more nuance than that. By tweeting it, she turned it into a public issue. The scale of the issue changed. The guy's employer probably fired him to avoid association with negative publicity, and to try to avoid being seen as supporting what he said. The fact that the guy was publicly shamed led to that. Had identities been anonymized while…

How is a conversation in earshot of tens of strangers at a public event a private conversation?
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