PyCon Code of Conduct changed to avoid public shaming • Hacker News Board

Re: PyCon Code of Conduct changed to avoid public shaming

#41

Post by mkr-hn » Thu, Mar 21, 2013, 3:13 PM UTC

Zikes wrote: post #18

RyanMcGreal wrote: post #8

Instead of a learning opportunity, this has turned into an enormous fustercluck. It would have been better for Adria Richards to address the matter directly rather than post a photo on twitter, but it was not wrong for her to address the matter. Similarly, nearly everyone can agree - including Richards - that the employer who allegedly fired one of the people involved in the incident clearly overreacted. There are le…

> It would have been better for Adria Richards to address the matter directly rather than post a photo on twitter This isn't a case of "it would have been better", it was a case of "what she did was clearly wrong". She overreacted as did the man's employer, and she has not shown any remorse. > But the extreme outburst of misogyny - the insults, abuse, and physical threats including threats of rape - is perhaps the bi…

This is very familiar to me, because it happens any time a woman complains about something at a convention, even if directly to officials (meaning not publicly): https://twitter.com/search/realtime?q=%40adriarichards&s...

There are many level-headed comments in there on both sides, but also plenty of violent and hateful comments. It doesn't matter whether the report is private or public--the subject on both ends will come out on social media, and the attacks will come. I've seen it happen too many times to think it's isolated, or related to the approach.

Re: PyCon Code of Conduct changed to avoid public shaming

#42

Post by throwawayabc » Thu, Mar 21, 2013, 3:14 PM UTC

This is tricky.

"Dear Attendees,

If you feel you're being harassed, please don't tell anyone but us. Thanks."

As a general rule I think we should be working to empower people to handle situations on their own (part of that handling will likely include notifying organizers). Not disenfranchising them so they've got no recourse but to report something to a group of people selected for their ability to run a conference, not necessarily mediate disputes.

Do I happen to think that "public shaming" was appropriate here? Probably not. Do I think it's been effectively used by many groups in the past to effect change, yes. The fact that PyCon and many other conferences have adopted a code of conduct is evidence of this.

When a group asks me to constrain how I behave outside the confines of their event (on twitter for example) I tend to apply it universally. If I can't talk about the bad I most definitely will not talk about the good. I'll not have a third party filtering my communication that way.

Re: PyCon Code of Conduct changed to avoid public shaming

#43

Post by niggler » Thu, Mar 21, 2013, 3:14 PM UTC

Zikes wrote: post #18

RyanMcGreal wrote: post #8

Instead of a learning opportunity, this has turned into an enormous fustercluck. It would have been better for Adria Richards to address the matter directly rather than post a photo on twitter, but it was not wrong for her to address the matter. Similarly, nearly everyone can agree - including Richards - that the employer who allegedly fired one of the people involved in the incident clearly overreacted. There are le…

> It would have been better for Adria Richards to address the matter directly rather than post a photo on twitter This isn't a case of "it would have been better", it was a case of "what she did was clearly wrong". She overreacted as did the man's employer, and she has not shown any remorse. > But the extreme outburst of misogyny - the insults, abuse, and physical threats including threats of rape - is perhaps the bi…

"She overreacted as did the man's employer, and she has not shown any remorse."

The problem is that people are attributing to her certain actions that she was not involved in. She didn't fire the guy; the employer did, based on his interpretation of the actions.

If calling attention to potential misogyny results in a witch-hunt or in victim-blaming, the underlying problems won't be addressed.

lizzard (https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=5411276) wrote this earlier:

"We need to be able to call out bad practices. People deny doing this stuff, they say we should report it, they say we should report it non-anonymously. Sadly every time we do... the same thing happens as a result."

Re: PyCon Code of Conduct changed to avoid public shaming

#44

Post by imsofuture » Thu, Mar 21, 2013, 3:15 PM UTC

dos1 wrote: post #27

One of the reasons I've taken an interest in this whole fiasco is that I occasionally make "colorful" jokes. Not dissimilar from the two guys at PyCon. I make every attempt to keep these jokes private between my friends and I, but I'm sure others have heard me make them. Some people might find them funny, others may be offended. It scares me to think that making an offhand penis joke could result in being publicly ou…

What's amazing to me is the cognitive dissonance required to make the leap from Adria publicly outing someone (questionable, but not egregious given you know, the public venue) making an off-color joke to 'she got these people fired'.

Their boss finding out what they said got them fired. Because what they said wasn't appropriate in the opinion of their employer. Period. Full stop.

Re: PyCon Code of Conduct changed to avoid public shaming

#45

Post by pyre » Thu, Mar 21, 2013, 3:15 PM UTC

cooldeal wrote: post #31

sp332 wrote: post #20

Earlier quoted context omitted.

She complained to the PyCon staff, who quickly mediated a discussion between her and the guys she complained about. They apologized and everyone was OK. No career-related consequences necessary.

I believe that the PyCon staff noticed the tweet and took action, I don't think she complained to them.

Her blog post said that she was composing a text to the organizers, but that was after she tweeted the photo and her location (asking for others to 'shut the guys up'). Seems like PyCon organizers probably picked up on the tweets before the text message (if it was sent) did anything.

Re: PyCon Code of Conduct changed to avoid public shaming

#46

Post by metaphorm » Thu, Mar 21, 2013, 3:15 PM UTC

JulianMorrison wrote: post #11

I disagree. Public shaming is the right way to make harassers actually fear the consequences (to their career, for example).

public shaming is the equivalent of putting on a Bat mask and a Cape and beating people up in a dark parking lot.

Re: PyCon Code of Conduct changed to avoid public shaming

#47

Post by obstacle1 » Thu, Mar 21, 2013, 3:15 PM UTC

mkr-hn wrote: post #41

Zikes wrote: post #18

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> It would have been better for Adria Richards to address the matter directly rather than post a photo on twitter This isn't a case of "it would have been better", it was a case of "what she did was clearly wrong". She overreacted as did the man's employer, and she has not shown any remorse. > But the extreme outburst of misogyny - the insults, abuse, and physical threats including threats of rape - is perhaps the bi…

This is very familiar to me, because it happens any time a woman complains about something at a convention, even if directly to officials (meaning not publicly): https://twitter.com/search/realtime?q=%40adriarichards&s... There are many level-headed comments in there on both sides, but also plenty of violent and hateful comments. It doesn't matter whether the report is private or public--the subject on both ends will…

>I've seen it happen too many times to think it's isolated, or related to the approach.

Can you show us an example of another such time?

Re: PyCon Code of Conduct changed to avoid public shaming

#48

Post by freehunter » Thu, Mar 21, 2013, 3:15 PM UTC

RyanMcGreal wrote: post #8

Instead of a learning opportunity, this has turned into an enormous fustercluck. It would have been better for Adria Richards to address the matter directly rather than post a photo on twitter, but it was not wrong for her to address the matter. Similarly, nearly everyone can agree - including Richards - that the employer who allegedly fired one of the people involved in the incident clearly overreacted. There are le…

It wasn't wrong for her to address the matter, but she addressed the matter wrong regardless. Taking offense to a random conversation that you're not party to is one thing, but taking a picture of the people and calling up your significant number of followers and media presence in an attempt to ruin the offenders without so much as letting them have their side of the story surely is not in any way defensible.

True, the backlash that ensued got very heated, very quickly. But here's the point: both sides are wrong. And as more discussions happen with the parties that were involved, it's seeming like Adria may have even misheard part of what she was taking offense to.

So what's the fix? Understanding. Understanding that people will be people, and you can't fix people. If someone is making you feel uncomfortable, talk to them or an authority. What Adria did was just bound to cause more trouble, and she had to know that. I agree with you that there are opportunities to learn the best way to address a real issue when it comes up. The real issue is how a media figure plays off controversy to ruin the lives of people they don't agree with. We need to address that. This has absolutely nothing to do with gender equality.

Re: PyCon Code of Conduct changed to avoid public shaming

#49

Post by imsofuture » Thu, Mar 21, 2013, 3:16 PM UTC

RyanMcGreal wrote: post #8

Instead of a learning opportunity, this has turned into an enormous fustercluck. It would have been better for Adria Richards to address the matter directly rather than post a photo on twitter, but it was not wrong for her to address the matter. Similarly, nearly everyone can agree - including Richards - that the employer who allegedly fired one of the people involved in the incident clearly overreacted. There are le…

Yes! Thank you!

Re: PyCon Code of Conduct changed to avoid public shaming

#50

Post by orclev » Thu, Mar 21, 2013, 3:16 PM UTC

jagermo wrote: post #17

I'm a little confused, what about privacy laws? Yes, you are at a conference, but that doesn't give anybody the right to take your picture and post it on twitter, without asking your permission, right? (Sorry, German here, so if the laws in the US are completly different, please ignore).

The conference would most likely be considered a semi-public place and therefore have limited expectations of privacy. In general your right to privacy is dictated by the reasonable expectation of such, E.G. when at home you've got a reasonable expectation of privacy, but when out in a public location such as a mall or restaurant it isn't really reasonable to expect privacy.